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Too little too late?

pearl

Well-Known Member
Some might think its too little too late, but I think its one of the few times a pope in the history of the Church has not only sought forgiveness but has actually apologized.

Francis has said his weeklong visit, which begins Sunday, is a “penitential pilgrimage” to beg forgiveness on Canadian soil for the “evil” done to Native peoples by Catholic missionaries. It follows his April 1 apology in the Vatican for the generations of trauma Indigenous peoples suffered as a result of a church-enforced policy to eliminate their culture and assimilate them into Canadian, Christian society.

Cardinal Michael Czerny, a Canadian Jesuit who is a top papal adviser, recalled that early on in his papacy, Francis asserted that no single culture can claim a hold on Christianity, and that the church cannot demand that people on other continents imitate the European way of expressing the faith.


The trip won’t be easy for the 85-year-old Francis or for residential school survivors and their families. Francis can no longer walk without assistance and will be using a wheelchair and cane because of painful strained knee ligaments. Trauma experts are being deployed at all events to provide mental health assistance for school survivors, given the likelihood of triggering memories.

Pope's Indigenous tour signals a rethink of mission legacy (msn.com)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The tough question is the genuineness of said apologies.

Sometimes apologies only come when one is caught.

My opinion is if the Catholic church was aware of this change in moral compass , they would of come forward on their own volition, and would have never kept it under wraps if it never was exposed by others. However that never happened.

I think the apologies are a knee jerk reaction to being actually caught and exposed more than any genuine remorse or moral reconciliation.

It's why a number people think the pope is full of **** and I can't say I blame them.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
The tough question is the genuineness of said apologies.

Sometimes apologies only come when one is caught.

My opinion is if the Catholic church was aware of this they would of come forward on their own volition, and would have never kept it under wraps if it never was exposed. However that never happened.

I think the apologies are a knee jerk reaction to being actually caught and exposed more than any genuine remorse or moral reconciliation.

It's why a number people think the pope is full of **** and I can't say I blame them.
In other words, you would never be satisfied with any apology.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This visit is one more example of why I like Pope Francis. Apologies are easy but they're proven genuine by action. I see the Pope taking positive steps to move the Catholic Church is a new and better direction.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
good intentions going to hell.

someone thinking they know what is better, best for another. free will isn't so free. love isn't love when it's taken by force


 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
In other words, you would never be satisfied with any apology.
I think satisfaction would have been met had the Catholics willingly exposed their own cover up by themselves, and not someone else exposing them.

For some people, you would be right. There will never be a satisfactory apology anymore.

My own opinion is there is only forward to look to, and hopefully not repeat unforgivable acts and cover them up again.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This a wrong that cannot be righted in any part of the world. Canadian natives were not the only people to suffer.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The tough question is the genuineness of said apologies.

Sometimes apologies only come when one is caught.

My opinion is if the Catholic church was aware of this change in moral compass , they would of come forward on their own volition, and would have never kept it under wraps if it never was exposed by others. However that never happened.

I think the apologies are a knee jerk reaction to being actually caught and exposed more than any genuine remorse or moral reconciliation.

It's why a number people think the pope is full of **** and I can't say I blame them.
From what I have seen of the man, this Pope seems like a genuinely good person. He's human, like the rest of us, and prior to his election, he was, like all others in the Church hierarchy, a man under authority. Therefore, prior to his papacy, he kept silent when he was commanded to, but since his election, I've seen him working to make improvements. In an organization as enormous and bound and hog-tied by tradition as the Catholic Church, this is an immense task -- a bigger one than almost any of us could take on.

Therefore, why not cut him a little slack, and let him make amends where he can. It's never wise to throw out the good by seeking only the perfect.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Apology after being caught is pointless. PPL need to go to jail and pay billions in damages.
I daresay. But people have gone to jail, you know, although many others have been saved through statutes of limitations, or the biggest statute of limitations of all -- they died.

And while it's easy to say "pay billions," who, in fact will be paying? I say it's the ordinary catholics sitting in the pews, through their collections, and I'm fairly certain we shouldn't be blaming all of them for the actions of the few, now should we?
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I daresay. But people have gone to jail, you know, although many others have been saved through statues of limitations, or the biggest statute of limitations of all -- they died.

And while it's easy to say "pay billions," who, in fact will be paying? I say it's the ordinary catholics sitting in the pews, through their collections, and I'm fairly certain we shouldn't be blaming all of them for the actions of the few, now should we?
It's the same thing as a company right. The concept of damages and liability should apply.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
This a wrong that cannot be righted in any part of the world. Canadian natives were not the only people to suffer.
Absolutely. Sincere apologies should be strictly reserved for minor peccadilloes. As for the rest, to hell with the abused and the penitent alike.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not to excuse the Catholic Church in any way for these atrocities, but this also was done by the governments and also other churches as well.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Not to excuse the Catholic Church in any way for these atrocities, but this also was done by the governments and also other churches as well.
Quite right, @metis, and all too often, it was churches operating facilities at the specific behest of the governments of the day.

That, of course, does not excuse the brutality inflicted, nor the burial of children in unmarked graves -- anyone claiming to be Christian should know that like they know their own names.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I daresay. But people have gone to jail, you know, although many others have been saved through statues of limitations, or the biggest statute of limitations of all -- they died.
Which province are you thinking of? Many no longer have any limitation period for sexual abuse.
And while it's easy to say "pay billions," who, in fact will be paying? I say it's the ordinary catholics sitting in the pews, through their collections, and I'm fairly certain we shouldn't be blaming all of them for the actions of the few, now should we?
Sounds like you have an issue with the whole concept of corporate liability.

I'm sure that the pension funds that many widows depended on were invested in Union Carbide when the Bhopal settlement got awarded. I certainly don't see the average Catholic parishoner as less innocent than the average person who had a stake in Union Carbide.

... but you're misrepresenting the situation. Nobody in the pews now has to pay a dime for any settlement. The Church can pay any settlement out of reserves and by selling off property.

Now... if some of that property ends up being their parish church, they have a choice:

- they can do nothing, and watch an asset they didn't own to begin with get sold off and repurposed or redeveloped, or

- they and their fellow parishoners can pool their money, buy the church, and end up being the actual owner of a valuable asset... IOW they wouldn't be any worse off than they are right now, in terms of their balance sheet.

The only way a parishoner would end up bearing any cost in this is if they were to decide to take option #2 above and then just donate the church back to the diocese... and if they do that, that's completely on them.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not to excuse the Catholic Church in any way for these atrocities, but this also was done by the governments and also other churches as well.
The government and those other churches have paid their settlements for their role in the residential school scandal. IIRC, the Catholic Church is the only organization involved that has refused to pay the court-ordered restitution it owes.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Some might think its too little too late, but I think its one of the few times a pope in the history of the Church has not only sought forgiveness but has actually apologized.

Francis has said his weeklong visit, which begins Sunday, is a “penitential pilgrimage” to beg forgiveness on Canadian soil for the “evil” done to Native peoples by Catholic missionaries. It follows his April 1 apology in the Vatican for the generations of trauma Indigenous peoples suffered as a result of a church-enforced policy to eliminate their culture and assimilate them into Canadian, Christian society.

Cardinal Michael Czerny, a Canadian Jesuit who is a top papal adviser, recalled that early on in his papacy, Francis asserted that no single culture can claim a hold on Christianity, and that the church cannot demand that people on other continents imitate the European way of expressing the faith.


The trip won’t be easy for the 85-year-old Francis or for residential school survivors and their families. Francis can no longer walk without assistance and will be using a wheelchair and cane because of painful strained knee ligaments. Trauma experts are being deployed at all events to provide mental health assistance for school survivors, given the likelihood of triggering memories.

Pope's Indigenous tour signals a rethink of mission legacy (msn.com)

I think at any point one can divorce themselves from their past and decide going forward to make right choices.
So sincerity is possible but only the person themselves can know their own level of sincerity.
The rest of us have to make educated guesses. We are left to make judgement against their future actions.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Some might think its too little too late,

It follows his April 1 apology in the Vatican for the generations of trauma Indigenous peoples suffered as a result of a church-enforced policy to eliminate their culture and assimilate them into Canadian, Christian society.

Sometimes apologies only come when one is caught.
In Holland "April 1" = "April fools' day"
Not the best day to apologise
That's when people fool each other

For God's sake, he has 360+ days
And chooses April 1
 
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