Too Bad Jesus Didn't Think of Everything

[ChristineM]

Glad to know it. But see post #11

I read post #11, what i got from it was all in the last paragraph

So, where is your evidence that people love their enemies?

I don't see that people do love their enemies. Sure there is lots of religious rhetoric but i never see any evidence of it in real life

Rome considered all that area of the middle east to be theirs. The powers are not likely to take as a friend someone who preached against the Roman way of life. Preaching such sedition as "one god" effectively makes the Roman empire the enemy[/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

Honestly, I think Jesus scored some points, said some very wise things. I genuinely admire the way he picked up on Judaism's 'love your neighbor' and explicitly extended it to social outcasts such as prostitutes and tax collectors.

I just wish he'd gone a step further --- just one step further -- and had truly universalized the commandment. Truly applied it to everyone.

There were "many things" that the people of the world was not yet ready to hear back in the days of Jesus....
That is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Universalizing was the mission entrusted to the Spirit of truth, a mission to be accomplished in the age we are now living in.

 

[soulsurvivor]

When I think about it, I can't figure out why he left out our political opponents. It's a mystery. But I see no evidence in the world today that Jesus even for a moment thought of including our political opponents in with everyone else we are to love as our neighbor.

What do suppose 'Love your enemies' means? All enemies except your political opponents?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Good to know. But see post #11

I disagree with some of your post if I understand it correctly.

I take what Jesus said as the authors true intent. Whether modern believers reflect the teachings of their Holy text or not does not change the original teaching of a text. Focus on the context of the text for context is king.

People by nature do not interpret Holy Text for what it is, but adapt it to their prejudices and desires, cherry picking verses here and there and twisting the context. That is the history of Christianity. That is why I hardly ever come across Christians who knows the context of the different books of the Bible, never mind having actually read the book.

Hardly any Christians today love their enemy because it is not in humans nature to love our enemy, as we are tribal. Therefore it is highly unlikely to come across humans to do such a thing, never mind what their book says.

 

[firedragon]

Honestly, I think Jesus scored some points, said some very wise things. I genuinely admire the way he picked up on Judaism's 'love your neighbor' and explicitly extended it to social outcasts such as prostitutes and tax collectors.

I just wish he'd gone a step further --- just one step further -- and had truly universalized the commandment. Truly applied it to everyone.

When I think about it, I can't figure out why he left out our political opponents. It's a mystery. But I see no evidence in the world today that Jesus even for a moment thought of including our political opponents in with everyone else we are to love as our neighbor.

Just my 2 cents.

Do you mean to say that you actually believe Jesus said those things you quote?

 

[Windwalker]

Honestly, I think Jesus scored some points, said some very wise things. I genuinely admire the way he picked up on Judaism's 'love your neighbor' and explicitly extended it to social outcasts such as prostitutes and tax collectors.

I just wish he'd gone a step further --- just one step further -- and had truly universalized the commandment. Truly applied it to everyone.

When I think about it, I can't figure out why he left out our political opponents. It's a mystery. But I see no evidence in the world today that Jesus even for a moment thought of including our political opponents in with everyone else we are to love as our neighbor.

I believe he did teach that. Extending the net to outcasts, was not shifting from the in-group to the out-group. It was bringing the out-group into the in-group making them all the in-group, or "one", where there was no in-group or out-group. His greatest commandment to love your neighbor as yourself, was in fact universal. That's what made it so radical against a mindset of us vs. them.

Jesus emphasized all that by telling his followers to love even your enemies. That certainly would include one's political opponents as well. But that love, does not mean do not disagree or oppose. That love does not mean becoming a pacifist and allowing yourself or others to be abused or taken advantage of. It means, don't use force, amongst other things.

 

[Ponder This]

Aren't you assuming that passage is taken by people to mean what you think it means? In other words, if it is being taken as you think it is being taken, wouldn't people be acting on it? Check out C.S. Peirce. The definition of a belief is what you do (or don't do) because of your holding it. Otherwise, the 'belief' is empty and has no demonstrable meaning.

Although it is an interesting thought you've got going there. I mean the notion something can be a belief if there are no consequences to holding it. How would you ever manage to show, then, any difference between believing something and not believing something?

So, where is your evidence that people love their enemies?

I'm praying for them. I think there are other people also praying for them. You can pray for them too if you like!

 

[sojourner]

Honestly, I think Jesus scored some points, said some very wise things. I genuinely admire the way he picked up on Judaism's 'love your neighbor' and explicitly extended it to social outcasts such as prostitutes and tax collectors.

I just wish he'd gone a step further --- just one step further -- and had truly universalized the commandment. Truly applied it to everyone.

When I think about it, I can't figure out why he left out our political opponents. It's a mystery. But I see no evidence in the world today that Jesus even for a moment thought of including our political opponents in with everyone else we are to love as our neighbor.

Just my 2 cents.

Jesus did say to love your enemies and to pray for your persecutors.

 

[sojourner]

Extending the net to outcasts, was not shifting from the in-group to the out-group. It was bringing the out-group into the in-group making them all the in-group, or "one", where there was no in-group or out-group.

That’s the central message of Matthew’s Gospel.

 

[sojourner]

Aren't you assuming that passage is taken by people to mean what you think it means? In other words, if it is being taken as you think it is being taken, wouldn't people be acting on it? Check out C.S. Peirce. The definition of a belief is what you do (or don't do) because of your holding it. Otherwise, the 'belief' is empty and has no demonstrable meaning.

Although it is an interesting thought you've got going there. I mean the notion something can be a belief if there are no consequences to holding it. How would you ever manage to show, then, any difference between believing something and not believing something?

So, where is your evidence that people love their enemies?

Not necessarily. I see much of Jesus’ teaching as setting the bar very high. Jesus lost many followers because of tough teachings. I think the passage says explicitly to love our enemy, and that includes political enemies. But I think that’s an incredibly difficult thing to do. While we believe in Jesus and the teachings, we also recognize that some of the teachings are too difficult to easily implement.

 

[epronovost]

Not necessarily. I see much of Jesus’ teaching as setting the bar very high. Jesus lost many followers because of tough teachings. I think the passage says explicitly to love our enemy, and that includes political enemies. But I think that’s an incredibly difficult thing to do. While we believe in Jesus and the teachings, we also recognize that some of the teachings are too difficult to easily implement.

I don't think Jesus, as presented in the Gospels, ever thought anybody was supposed to follow all his instruction (nor is the narrative of the Gospels indicative of it). They are pretty much impossible to achieve. Unconditionnal and absolute love, complete charity, rejection of family in favor of treating every person just as if they were family, thought crimes and radical measure to purge any and all sins out of yourself, etc. The point of the story is for people to see that example and those lessons as something to aspire and admire, but be absolutely incapable of replicating hence the need of salvation through Jesus's death. No man can follow the example of Jesus and be truly good, thus you need salvation in the form of God's mercy through your faith and, depending on sects, through acts of contrition and charity.

 

[Clara Tea]

Honestly, I think Jesus scored some points, said some very wise things. I genuinely admire the way he picked up on Judaism's 'love your neighbor' and explicitly extended it to social outcasts such as prostitutes and tax collectors.

I just wish he'd gone a step further --- just one step further -- and had truly universalized the commandment. Truly applied it to everyone.

When I think about it, I can't figure out why he left out our political opponents. It's a mystery. But I see no evidence in the world today that Jesus even for a moment thought of including our political opponents in with everyone else we are to love as our neighbor.

Love thy neighbor is universal, and applies to political opponents.

Jesus met Roman soldier, Pontius Pilate, and said "I love you." Pilate had Jesus stabbed in the gut with a spear, and Jesus said "I love you." Pilate had Jesus nailed to a cross to die, with instructions for no one to feed or water him on pain of death, and Jesus said "I love you." Pilate had a crown of thorns put on Jesus's head, and Jesus said "I love you." Some speculate that Jesus was sexually violated and had excrement tossed on him while he was on the cross, and Jesus said "I love you."

We are supposed to say "I love you" as we are tortured, too (likely with the same results).

I wonder if God loved his son Jesus? When Jesus asked God "why hath thou forsaken me?" Why didn't God save him?

Romans, trying to make themselves look better, had blamed Jews for the crucifixion of Christ all these years (2000 years). Romans (aka modern Italians) ran the Vatican, with no other nationality represented, for hundreds of years. Why not have a Spanish or Mexican pope?

Today there is political fighting. Some want universal health care (Obamacare) while some want sick people to fend for themselves and if they are poor....die. Some want to save God's environment so they listen to climate experts who say that mankind has adversely influenced the natural process of Global Warming, causing it to occur too fast for evolution to keep up. While others want to defy God, follow Satan, and get greedy with oil mammon.

We are torn between loving Satan (who is destroying God's environment and making wars that kill), or following God's laws. Some say that we must love all, because that is what Jesus taught....which means, of course, loving Satan. But while they love Satan, are they really able to follow God?

 

[epronovost]

Romans (aka modern Italians) ran the Vatican, with no other nationality represented, for hundreds of years. Why not have a Spanish or Mexican pope?

That's actually a bit deceptive. There were a significant number of Greek and Syrian popes during Antiquity and early Middle-Ages. In the heart of the Middle Ages, a significant number of popes came from the Germanic Empire and France and one lonely English Pope. The first Spanish or Portugese Popes arrived at the beginning of the modern era.

Italians dominated the papacy for several reasons from tradition (popes were originaly supposed to be the patriarch of Rome and thus Romans/Italians just like the patriarch of Alexandria was supposed to be a Egyptian-Greek) to politics. At the time, the Papal States were extanding toward all the center of Italy and not just the City of the Vatican and operating in a way not unlike any other feudal States. Many popes were chosen from powerful famillies of the region in elections that were about as real as those of the Germanic Emperor and that's not counting the political pull of the various monarchs of Europe. That's why you often get several popes of the same nationality in a row as the Papal States were basically under the thumb of those foreign kings at the time.

 

[Sunstone]

This notion that Jesus

Not necessarily. I see much of Jesus’ teaching as setting the bar very high. Jesus lost many followers because of tough teachings. I think the passage says explicitly to love our enemy, and that includes political enemies. But I think that’s an incredibly difficult thing to do. While we believe in Jesus and the teachings, we also recognize that some of the teachings are too difficult to easily implement.

Good points by themselves, but check out post #11

 

[Sunstone]

Do you mean to say that you actually believe Jesus said those things you quote?

Is there any operational difference if he did not?

 

[Sunstone]

What do suppose 'Love your enemies' means? All enemies except your political opponents?

What does it mean to me? Wrong question. What does it mean to people who profess to practice it? Right question.

You're welcome.

 

[Sunstone]

Y'all's instinct to go for the low hanging fruit is betraying you on this one.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

[firedragon]

Is there any operational difference if he did not?

It is your OP I am asking about.

 

[Thief]

When I think about it, I can't figure out why he left out our political opponents. It's a mystery. But I see no evidence in the world today that Jesus even for a moment thought of including our political opponents in with everyone else we are to love as our neighbor.

politics is manipulation by those in charge

so.......no

the mind and heart should lead the way

if your hand does anything at all.....it's becasue you thought you should
or you felt like it

you should NOT let politics be your guide

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

At this point, I don't consider what Jesus thought of anything at all. I haven't thought of him in months, actually. This makes me happy.