Kelly of the Phoenix said:
But what are the real attributes that differentiate them?
That is a good question, and one which can be answered through Scripture.
I addressed some of that in my post above already where I define "magic" in the context of scripture.
The simple answer is: Anything done by the empowering of the Holy Spirit is legal, encouraged, and intended by God to build up His people and bring His Kingdom to earth. Because it is the Holy Spirit doing it, and not you or a spirit opposed to God, then by definition it is always good and in line with God's will.
Satan and the world have counterfeits which he wants to deceive people into putting their trust in something that will cause them to turn from God. A clear example would be any spiritual act done by the power of demons. That's idolatry, it's illegal, and the reason we avoid it is for our own good because satan comes only to steal, kill, and destroy.
Even Jesus condemns looking for signs in at least one Gospel. Miracles aren't proof of crap because it was well known others could do them too.
You are taking that passage out of context.
Jesus actually did perform signs everywhere he went:
Looking at the passages in context:
Mark 8:11. Matthew 16. Luke 11.
Compare with Luke 4:22-30
They were called wicked because they did not repent based on what Jesus had already said and did (which was a lot). Because of that it is said certain people of the past will condemn them for their unbelief and unreptenence. He doesn't say they will be condemned because they sought a sign.
It was their heart condition, of unbelief and wickeness, that led them to demand Jesus perform miracles on demand to satisify them; because they were skeptics opposed to Him and offended by Him. They weren't genuine seekers of truth.
Keep in mind, we're talking about people who plotted to kill Lazarus, the man Jesus raised from the dead, specifically because they didn't want proof walking around that Jesus had performed such a miracle. John 12:10.
Nothing would have been good enough for a people like that, and Jesus knows the hearts of all men. John 2:24-25.
Jesus doesn't need to prove Himself to anyone or win their approval. He will, however, reveal Himself to a genuine seeker of truth. Matthew 7:7.
How would a non-speaker of that language know you're now fluent in something they don't speak?
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
You say we need "interpreters" to hear God.
You have a misunderstanding of what I've said, and what scripture says, if you think God only speaks through the interpretation of the gift of tongues.
If the Holy Spirit can speak directly to the "translators", why not to the public? Why not just say what needs to be said directly?
God spoke to Abraham and Moses plainly, directly, face to face.
God spoke audibly to Israel in the desert, and at other instances:
Notice how the Israelites in Exodus 20 didn't actually want to hear the rest of what God had to say to them.
God also speaks through prophets throughout scripture. In fact, prophesy is one of the New Testament gifts of the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:7-10
1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that tongues, when interpreted, is the the same as prophecy. Because a tongue in the Holy Spirit is God speaking, any interpretation of that tongue then becomes a prophecy by definition because it is revealing the word of God to people.
If you are asking: "Why doesn't God just speak to everyone plainly". The answer can also be found in scripture.
Part of the reason is people are accountable to be obedient to the truth they know. The more clearly it is spoken to them the more accountable they are.
Also part of the reason is that God often hides His messages in parable or dreams so only those who are genuinely seeking truth will seek God for the answer. Others will dismiss it.
If God can speak to them, He can speak to anyone.
As the Bible shows us, God can speak plainly to anyone He wants to, but has chosen not to force Himself on everyone like that.
Garden of Eden God: Don't be like Me.
Tower of Babel God: Don't be like Me.
Every king or leader with hubris God: Don't be like Me.
Jesus: Be like God.
You've actually tried to say that to me before, and I already showed you why you misunderstand scripture, but you never responded to it. So I'll just repost it for you here:
Your attempted paraphrase hides the actual truth contained in the scripture:
God: "I created you to be like me".
Satan: "You aren't like God. He's lying to you. Rebel against God and only then will you be like Him."
(Effectively Satan is trying to make man like him, as the one who rebelled against God and was cast down from heaven)
Man: "Let's work our way up to Heaven and set our own name up in Heaven as an idol, not acknowledging God."
(Man is at this point reflecting the desire of Satan to make himself a replacement for God, as believed to be represented in Isaiah 14:12).
Jesus: "Be who you where created to be originally, like God, without rebellion towards Him."
Kelly of the Phoenix said:
IF they were the only ones in there, how do the authors know what it sounded like?
The authors of what? And why would they need to know what the tongue of the High Priest sounded like in order to relay the tradition that the High Priest spoke in a tongue only He and God could understand on the day of atonement? I don't follow what logic you're trying to use here.
I can't remember who it was, but wasn't it revealed at one point (I guess in the OT) that priests were eating the sacrifices meant for God (since God doesn't eat)?
You must be confused. In the levitical law, there is no ritual that requires them to leave food out with the expectation that God Himself will come and eat it. That is, actually, something we see in ancient pagan rituals.
In scripture it actually states that the sacrifices are suppose to be eaten by the priests, by the offerers, or consumed entirely by fire, based on the type of sacrifice.
There was bread on the table of showbread in the Inner Court. It was specified in leviticus 24:9 to be eaten by the priests on the sabbath, after the bread had sat on the table all week.
Because we see when the apostles try to exclude others not in the group from doing miracles in Jesus' name that they have a problem with narcissism. THEY want the monopoly on the crowds and anyone else just gets in their way, despite what Jesus specifically told them about that.
You are trying to draw conclusions that passage cannot support.
You are right to say that, in their pride, the disciples were doing something wrong.
Jesus rebuked them because the man actually was for Jesus. He wasn't working for satan, and probably wasn't working for himself either. Jesus was able to discern the difference, and didn't have wrong motives clouding His judgement.
However, you would be completely wrong if you try to take that passage beyond it's context and conclude that anyone doing anything spiritual automatically is considered to be "for Jesus". Scripture already shows us that's not true.
Jesus Himself was the one who told us that there will come false prophets and false miracle workers. Matthew 24:24.
Jesus also told us that not everyone who claims to do things in His name actually is: Matthew 7:22-23