Toldot question(s)

[rosends]

Just some thought questions about the beginning of this week's Torah reading -- I am not sure exactly how to quantify the questions so I apologize if this is muddled:

At the outset, Rivka is concerned about the twins in her "midst". So she does the following --

וַתֵּ֖לֶךְ לִדְרֹ֥שׁ אֶת־יְהֹוָֽה

And she went to inquire (Ramban says "pray") of/to God.

The commentators have her going to the Beit Medrash of Shem (from the medrash), or to speak to female relatives or to great men of the time or to prophets.

1. had no one ever had twins before so this seemed strange?
2. had no one ever had babies that kicked a whole lot before?
3. why wouldn't she go "inquire" of an expert in birth?
4. what precedent was there of "my stomach hurts, best go check with God!"?
5. in what sense were there prophets at that historical point?
6. getting these answers isn't the role of a prophet!

Any insights appreciated.

 

[rosends]

A second question -- this parsha has a phrase which appears 10 times in the 5 books of Moses, and twice in a small space, here in our parsha:

למה זה
which means "why is this"

Rivka uses it to ask about whatever issue her pregnancy presented and Eisav uses it to scorn the status of firstborn.

Is anyone familiar with any commentary which discusses the particular power and limited uses of this phrase? Does anyone make the connection in this parsha between Rivka's use and Eisav's use?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Just some thought questions about the beginning of this week's Torah reading -- I am not sure exactly how to quantify the questions so I apologize if this is muddled:

At the outset, Rivka is concerned about the twins in her "midst". So she does the following --

וַתֵּ֖לֶךְ לִדְרֹ֥שׁ אֶת־יְהֹוָֽה

And she went to inquire (Ramban says "pray") of/to God.

The commentators have her going to the Beit Medrash of Shem (from the medrash), or to speak to female relatives or to great men of the time or to prophets.

1. had no one ever had twins before so this seemed strange?
2. had no one ever had babies that kicked a whole lot before?
3. why wouldn't she go "inquire" of an expert in birth?
4. what precedent was there of "my stomach hurts, best go check with God!"?
5. in what sense were there prophets at that historical point?
6. getting these answers isn't the role of a prophet!

Any insights appreciated.

The following may help.

Essentially, according Midrash Rabba it was apparent to Rivqah that something more substantial was taking place. I.e. character traits were becoming apparent by what was happening in the womb. I.e. Esav trying to maim Ya'aqov, Esav running to Avodah Zara, etc. Also, if you notice above at Ibn Ezra she did go to other women and no one had the type of experience she was having. Thus, according to Sepher HaYashare she was prompted to to Shem, Ever, and Avraham Avinu and they all had the same response after doing tefillah.

In terms of the roles of the prophets at that point Midrash Meor Haafelah states:

Thus, in the sense that at that time Shem, Ever, and Avraham were you only source of advice about the ways of the 7 mitzvoth and about the ways of Hashem. Essentially, no different than the Nevi'im thoughout history. Something doesn't seem right, you don't have an answer, and the next step is to inquire of Hashem. As the Rambam wrote:

You may want to read all of Hilchoth Yesodey HaTorah chapter 7. Rambam there deals with the various characteristics of a Navi.

I hope that helps.

 

[rosends]

The following may help.

View attachment 57298
View attachment 57299
View attachment 57300

Essentially, according Midrash Rabba it was apparent to Rivqah that something more substantial was taking place. I.e. character traits were becoming apparent by what was happening in the womb. I.e. Esav trying to maim Ya'aqov, Esav running to Avodah Zara, etc. Also, if you notice above at Ibn Ezra she did go to other women and no one had the type of experience she was having. Thus, according to Sepher HaYashare she was prompted to to Shem, Ever, and Avraham Avinu and they all had the same response after doing tefillah.

In terms of the roles of the prophets at that point Midrash Meor Haafelah states:
View attachment 57301

Thus, in the sense that at that time Shem, Ever, and Avraham were you only source of advice about the ways of the 7 mitzvoth and about the ways of Hashem. Essentially, no different than the Nevi'im thoughout history. Something doesn't seem right, you don't have an answer, and the next step is to inquire of Hashem. As the Rambam wrote:
View attachment 57302
You may want to read all of Hilchoth Yesodey HaTorah chapter 7. Rambam there deals with the various characteristics of a Navi.

I hope that helps.

It does help -- I had seen the Ibn Ezra's remark about consulting other women (though I don't know how he gets to his answer, nor how there is a leap from what a woman might reassure her to asking God -- were there never twins before?). I also read the Kli Yakar's account of the escalating and he seems to be saying that the inner fighting is what drover her to pray (a la the Ramban's understanding of the words) -- he doesn't explain the more traditional understanding of asking as a result of the fighting.

As to the nevi'im insisted upon by some, if you say that Shem and ever and Avraham were the only sources of advice, then who were the other nevi'im that she consulted? And, again, what kind of tratidtion was there to ask a Navi to speak to God about something? Are there other textual examples of someone's needing an aswer to a personal question and asking a Navi to ask God?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It does help -- I had seen the Ibn Ezra's remark about consulting other women (though I don't know how he gets to his answer

It is mentioned in Sephar HaYashar and I think also Midrash Rabba. He more than likely is simply quoting previous information about the parasha that existed.

This Shiur from Rav Ratzon Arousi may help a bit.

were there never twins before?).

The following links may help in understanding how ancient cultures viewed the birth of twins.

Twins in West African Culture and Society of the Iron Age

Issue 2: Historical perspectives on twins and twin research

It could be also be that the type of challenges she was feeling in her pregnancy was not something that the other women she was around had experience with. For example, she was not able to have a child for 20 years then all of a sudden she is pregnant with a difficult pregnancy with no modern medical technology to explain it. Also, even in asking someone how would they know for sure w/o an ultra-sound what was going on inside. Also, being in the household of Beith Avraham it may have been aware to her that there was someone not normal about things. Especially since she more than likely heard about Avraham and Sara's experience with child bearing.

I also read the Kli Yakar's account of the escalating and he seems to be saying that the inner fighting is what drover her to pray (a la the Ramban's understanding of the words) -- he doesn't explain the more traditional understanding of asking as a result of the fighting.

See aswere above and below.

As to the nevi'im insisted upon by some, if you say that Shem and ever and Avraham were the only sources of advice, then who were the other nevi'im that she consulted?

The information I have found so far only claims she went to Yitzahhaq first but he did not receive nevuah on this particular matter. She then knew, just as Sara did about the Aqeda, that the Beith Midrash of Shem and Ever was the place to go and so was Avraham. There are some of Hazal who state that Shem and Ever taught anyone who came to them but they did not do outreach. If you happened upon them and wanted to learn - great but no sign at the door so they had others who learned from them. Also, according to Sepher HaYashar Avraham, Yitzhhaq, and Ya'aqov all learned at the Beith Midrash of Shem and Ever so it appears to be well know among Beith Avraham.

If we accept that Avraham was the only one of the three who was doing "Qiruv" so to speak it only makes sense that she would ask him - especially since he was well respected in the area. Also, we know that work of Hashem was a regular thing in Beith Avraham so everyone in that household would have been aware that when you have a challenge you go to Hashem. For example, how did Eli'ezer know to pray to Hashem to help him find a wife for Yitzhhaq? He was the prized student of Avraham Avinu.

So, who else were her options? They were surrounded by peoples who did Avodah Zara and Avodah Zara is assur to Beith Avraham.

Compare it today. If Jew who lives in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood. Who do they normally go to get life advice. Who ever is the Gedolim in their community.

And, again, what kind of tratidtion was there to ask a Navi to speak to God about something? Are there other textual examples of someone's needing an aswer to a personal question and asking a Navi to ask God?

See my answer above. It appears to be quite common. In in non-Jewish sources asking someone who could read the signs, in various Avodah Zara, was quite common the past. No different than talking to a doctor or a lawyer today.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This may also help.