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Today's modern Pharisees..

aaglaas

Member
Well, that's good. I wasn't trying to be confrontational, it's just that many non-Christians don't consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God and will argue accordingly.

Oh, I am a philosophical Taoist. Nice to meet you. :)

Hi seekingtruth, thank you so much and it's VERY nice to meet you!! I love that this site is open to people of all faiths or none, since so many other sites on religious debate only allow one narrow version of what they deem to be 'truth'. I hope you're having an awesome weekend!
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Certainly it was Pontius Pilate, as representative of the Romans by virtue of being governor of Judea, who formally ordered the execution.

However, we will have to agree to disagree that it was not the Pharisees, priests, and scribes who originally conspired to have him murdered.

Luke 22:1-6

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.

Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.


Luke 23:1-25

Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate. And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.” Then Pilate asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

He answered him and said, “It is as you say.”

So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.” But they were the more fierce, saying, “He stirs up the people, teaching throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee to this place.” When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked if the Man were a Galilean. And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.

Now when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceedingly glad; for he had desired for a long time to see Him, because he had heard many things about Him, and he hoped to see some miracle done by Him. Then he questioned Him with many words, but He answered him nothing. And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused Him. Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate. That very day Pilate and Herod became friends with each other, for previously they had been at enmity with each other.

Then Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests, the rulers, and the people, said to them, “You have brought this Man to me, as one who misleads the people. And indeed, having examined Him in your presence, I have found no fault in this Man concerning those things of which you accuse Him; no, neither did Herod, for I sent you back to him; and indeed nothing deserving of death has been done by Him. I will therefore chastise Him and release Him” (for it was necessary for him to release one to them at the feast).

And they all cried out at once, saying, “Away with this Man, and release to us Barabbas”— who had been thrown into prison for a certain rebellion made in the city, and for murder.

Pilate, therefore, wishing to release Jesus, again called out to them. But they shouted, saying, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!”

I am a nonbeliever, so quoting the gospels as history is at best going to get you a polite "No thanks."
 

aaglaas

Member
I am a nonbeliever, so quoting the gospels as history is at best going to get you a polite "No thanks."

Completely understood. Since that is the case, please, by all means, supply the history of this occasion from the secular source you prefer.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for your argument, the New Testament scripture goes into great detail about the Pharisees and their harsh, hypocritical, and evil motives... but of course you are free to disregard all of that Scripture if you so desire..
Because it's pure hatred of Jews.

It's untrue. Anyone who has even the smallest understanding of Judaism knows that the Christian bible just makes up stuff about Jews.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Hi CMike, why are you proud to be included as a Pharisee when this is what they did to Jesus?

Mark 3:5-6

Jesus looked upon the Pharisees with anger, being upset with them because they were hard hearted. Then, Jesus said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” The man stretched it out. His hand was healed. The Pharisees left and immediately took counsel with the Herodians. The Pharisees and Herodians then discussed how they might destroy Jesus.


Matthew 12:1-39

At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat?”

“Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the Sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned these innocent men.”

“For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Moving on from there, he went into their synagogue. And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.

He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the Sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and it was restored as sound as the other.

But the Pharisees went out and took counsel against him to put him to death.

Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand!" He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

When Jesus realized this, he withdrew from that place. Many [people] followed him, and he cured them all, but he warned them not to make him known.

This was to fulfill what had been spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

“Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not contend or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory. And in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

Then they brought to him a demoniac who was blind and mute. He cured the mute person so that he could speak and see. All the crowd was astounded, and said, “Could this perhaps be the Son of David?”

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.”

But he knew what they were thinking and said to them:

“Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

“And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

“Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit.”

“You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.”

“A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.”

“By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, “An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.


Matthew 26:3

Then the chief priests and the elders of the people were gathered together in the court of the high priest, named Caiaphas; and they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth and kill Him.…
Nonsense.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Would you, or do you, deny what the Pharisees of the time of Jesus conspired and did to Him?

Would you, or do you, deny that there is a modern day equivalent of them who attempt to do the same to gay people?
Even more nonsense.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Not all Pharisees are bad. I think the bad ones take law and make it heavier for people by adding to it more law, and more, and more. I think Pharisee means someone who explains law but adds his own ideas to it making it more complicated, not simpler.
A Pharisee is a Jew, just like me.

I am Pharisee, and proud of it.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for your argument, I believe that virtually all of that is pure fiction.
It goes beyond that.

It's hatred for Jews in the Christian bible.

Here are some more.

ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8.12)

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38) Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25). 1 “But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)

“He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16.16)

“Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of youconvinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)

“Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)

“It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13.45-51)

“For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake ... wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.10-14).

“The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father” (l John 2.22,23)

“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan ...” (Revelation 2.9,10)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A Pharisee is a Jew, just like me.

I am Pharisee, and proud of it.
OK
Phar·i·see
ˈferəˌsē/
noun
  1. a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.
    • a self-righteous person; a hypocrite.
 

aaglaas

Member
Because it's pure hatred of Jews.

It's untrue. Anyone who has even the smallest understanding of Judaism knows that the Christian bible just makes up stuff about Jews.

I disagree. Judaism has had factions within it that have behaved brutally and unjustly, just as Christianity has had and still does.
 

aaglaas

Member
OK
Phar·i·see
ˈferəˌsē/
noun
  1. a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.
    • a self-righteous person; a hypocrite.

In that context, I can completely agree and respect that.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
OK
Phar·i·see
ˈferəˌsē/
noun
  1. a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.
    • a self-righteous person; a hypocrite.
Isn't it awesome how religious bias works its way into language and then continuously reinforces itself through usage?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I disagree. Judaism has had factions within it that have behaved brutally and unjustly, just as Christianity has had and still does.

Not even close.

i.e. Spanish Inquisitions, pogroms, and let's not forget how the Black Plague was all the Jews's fault, so Christians had to burn all the Jews.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have used the word Pharisee to describe people who aren't even Jewish but who cling to their own law for their very life and who are convinced their law is the only righteous way.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
If you find no authority in it, why then are you on a religious forum site? Or...is your reason for being here to deny all spirituality? If so, that's completely fine with me.

That said, I give the name to the modern day equivalent of how the Pharisees are described in Scripture.
There ARE religions that find no authority in the gospels you know, and still consider themselves religions. Crazy, right?
 
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