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To what extent should religion promote democracy?

To what extent should religion promote democratic ideals?


  • Total voters
    15

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That’s not very egalitarian of you. Christians should be accorded the same rights as anyone else, should they not?

As individuals, yes, my statement clearly stated Christianity, i.e. the church as a whole had no place in politics
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I agree the Catholic Church promotes social justice in the world, but isn’t democracy an essential part of a just society? Are there any elements of democracy within the Catholic Church?

I would say only among the hierarchy. There is limited freedom at the parish level among the laity, voting for those elected to a leadership role in education; members of the rel ed board, parish council etc. There is a plus side to this lack of freedom; especially in its liturgy, no matter where one attends across the world it is one.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The last two hundred years have seen a profound change in the governance of human affairs with the ascendancy of democracy, human rights and freedom. These are important ideals that can easily be taken for granted. In many parts of the world the majority of people don’t have a voice or the opportunity to elect those who would represent them. It can be dangerous to speak out against injustice.

In this thread I wish to examine the extent to which each of our faiths promotes the ideals of democracy within our communities. In other words are democratic ideals important enough to model in our faith communities? Are there aspects of our faith communities where democratic institutions may exemplify more noble principles compared to secular institutions?

Democracy is of fundamental importance in my religion, the Baha’i Faith. Every year we attend gatherings to elect Local and National Assemblys. These institutions are invested with the authority to govern our communities alongside the responsibility to consult with our communities and consider the thoughts of individual members.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the early twentieth century taught:
Do not yield to the overwhelming power of tyranny and despotism. Serve the cause of democracy and freedom. Continue your journey to the end. The bright day is coming. The nucleus of the new race is forming. The harbinger of the new ideals of international justice is appearing.

How about your faith? How important is democracy and why?
Where is there a true democratic system? Even in the U.S. our democracy is subject to tyranny and despotism. And, ultimately, any religion that believes in God, and that God's laws are supreme, isn't going to allow everyone to have their own opinion or say in to what is true. It's that religions Scriptures that are true and God is their ruler. And, isn't that close to how it is with Baha'is? So they elect or appoint temporary leaders... but aren't they there only to insure the Baha'i people stay true to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Where is there a true democratic system? Even in the U.S. our democracy is subject to tyranny and despotism. And, ultimately, any religion that believes in God, and that God's laws are supreme, isn't going to allow everyone to have their own opinion or say in to what is true. It's that religions Scriptures that are true and God is their ruler. And, isn't that close to how it is with Baha'is? So they elect or appoint temporary leaders... but aren't they there only to insure the Baha'i people stay true to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith?

Where is a true democratic system? Within the world wide Baha’i community. Each year we elect out local and National Assemblys in a spiritually uplifting manner with our thoughts on who has the best combination of qualities that can best represent our communities. There is no nomination or electioneering. Every Baha’i in good standing is eligible to vote or be voted for. Communities need good governance, even those with Divinely Revealed laws. The thoughts and opinions of each community member is valuable as part of the process of decision making.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
To what extent should religion promote democracy?

I think Christians should promote freedom and love. If any government supports those, it can be accepted. But in generally it would be better to not have any governments, because earthly governments are the thing that makes all wars possible, without them, we would not have wars. And actually, in the beginning, it was not meant to be so that people are under earthly governments (1 Sam. 8). Earthly governments enslave people, which is not good, not even when it is the majority that oppresses the minority, like in democracy it is.

… make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. Samuel prayed to Yahweh. Yahweh said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they tell you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not be king over them… … He said, This will be the manner of the king who shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them to him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots; He will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. He will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your olive groves, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. He will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your best young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your flocks: and you shall be his servants. You shall cry out in that day because of your king whom you shall have chosen you; and Yahweh will not answer you in that day. But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; and they said, No: but we will have a king over us,…
1 Sam. 8:5-19

It would be better for people to renounce all earthly governments.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Where is a true democratic system? Within the world wide Baha’i community. Each year we elect out local and National Assemblys in a spiritually uplifting manner with our thoughts on who has the best combination of qualities that can best represent our communities. There is no nomination or electioneering. Every Baha’i in good standing is eligible to vote or be voted for. Communities need good governance, even those with Divinely Revealed laws. The thoughts and opinions of each community member is valuable as part of the process of decision making.
Okay... So who get elected to the UHJ? Does the UHJ appoint people to the International Teaching Center? And then, males from the Teaching Center get elected to the UHJ? I hope the article I linked to is wrong. Otherwise, things aren't so democratic as they seem. But I've seen local problems also. Who gets elected to LSA's and to be representatives to elect NSA's? If I lived in your town, I'd elect you, because I know you. But what if there were other people better qualified that I didn't know? And, do incumbents have a better chance to win, because people know them? And, do people really vote on who is best qualified? Going back to the Teaching Center thing, at least those guys have proven themselves. But, how did they get there? They worked up the ranks until they got appointed? Did they have asperations of becoming a UHJ member? Did they do all the right things to get themselves into that position? And how many people actually do the voting to elect them into the UHJ? And, would you really trust all the Baha'is voting to elect the members of NSA's and the UHJ rather than just elected representatives? I'd imagine they would come up with some very different people.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
the only government I can feel good about is the kingdom of God. Jesus is the king of that kingdom . that government will do things for mankind that others could only dream about. no more war no more hunger no more sickness .even death is gone from mankind.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
the only government I can feel good about is the kingdom of God. Jesus is the king of that kingdom . that government will do things for mankind that others could only dream about. no more war no more hunger no more sickness .even death is gone from mankind.
The Baha'i Faith it is that government. It's prophet says he is the return of Christ and has brought the divine plan to establish peace on Earth. But people have to implement that plan and so far, most people are rejecting him or don't know about his plan. The problems... Jesus is not the King. He was only one of many messengers and now the latest one is Baha'u'llah And, it sounds like people are going to keep on getting sick and dying. A perfect world, I guess, was just an exaggeration.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
1 CORINTHIANS 15 :
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
did not The Baha'i Faith read and study the whole bible ?
They think they have... in essence. Since their prophet told them that he has a new, improved message from God, many don't feel the need to read something that is no longer relevant. So everything gets explained away. Satan is not real. It's just a metaphor for our lower nature. Jesus rose "spiritually" not "physically". His body died and stayed dead. The "Christi" Spirit has returned, not Jesus. Jesus was the "only" way... back then. But now, the new "Christ" is the "only" way. Yet, they say they believe the Bible is the Word of God... just not 100% authentic and with some man-made traditions possibly added in. A very significant one, that I bring up all the time and Baha'is ignore, is that they say Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. It's no big deal to them, probably some scribe screwed up, is the type of answers I got when I first questioned them on that... but that was a couple years ago. Now, nothing.

They mean well and think they have the truth from God. So it's hard to debate/argue with them, because most all of us think what we believe is the truth, so, therefore, the other people must be wrong.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
from what I've seen they clearly don't know what the kingdom is or what that kingdom will do
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Have you read what he (the Pope) has written on the evils of Capitalism? The need to protect the poor and all of Creation? I hear nothing like this from "democratically elected" leaders.
Have you read the allegations against Francis from the time when he was a bishop in Argentina? It seems to me that there's a serious chance that he cooperated with tyrants, resulting in the murder of other Catholic priests.

Argentina 'Dirty War' accusations haunt Pope Francis
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
from what I've seen they clearly don't know what the kingdom is or what that kingdom will do
They believe they are building God's Kingdom by following and obeying the Baha'i laws and teachings. Whatever might contradict it in the Bible is interpreted in a way that satisfies them. Which means something that shows how the Christian interpretation is wrong. And again, because they believe their teachings are from God and are more recent, that they supersede anything in the Bible anyway.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I think religion should promote those things in democracy which leads to oneness, equality and the betterment of people's conditions but that with regards to morals and morality, religion should take the lead and promote gods idea of morals and virtues and not man's because He knows us as He created us and He ultimately knows what is best for us.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
They believe they are building God's Kingdom by following and obeying the Baha'i laws and teachings. Whatever might contradict it in the Bible is interpreted in a way that satisfies them. Which means something that shows how the Christian interpretation is wrong. And again, because they believe their teachings are from God and are more recent, that they supersede anything in the Bible anyway.
God's kingdom will not be in one place on earth . the whole earth will be governed by it . not from some central location, but from heaven . will do so it is said for a thousand years .

its the highest form of arrogance to dare think scripture can be superseded
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think religion should promote those things in democracy which leads to oneness, equality and the betterment of people's conditions but that with regards to morals and morality, religion should take the lead and promote gods idea of morals and virtues and not man's because He knows us as He created us and He ultimately knows what is best for us.
Hey Loverofhumanity, good to hear from you. But, as usual, I got a question for you. In the U.S. it seems like the lowest common denominator on morality is winning out. So even if the majority of people end up believing in the Baha'i Faith, will they be able to legislate and enforce a strict moral code on the rest of the people? I don't think they can. People are going to continue doing the things they do... and even some people within the religion will do some of those things too. So how do think it will work?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hey Loverofhumanity, good to hear from you. But, as usual, I got a question for you. In the U.S. it seems like the lowest common denominator on morality is winning out. So even if the majority of people end up believing in the Baha'i Faith, will they be able to legislate and enforce a strict moral code on the rest of the people? I don't think they can. People are going to continue doing the things they do... and even some people within the religion will do some of those things too. So how do think it will work?

Hi CG. I always look forward to hearing from you. Lately I’ve been on a great and awesome adventure for a few months that I might start a thread on. Anyway to try and answer your question......

I think It’ll work like it always has worked. Morality will only change when people want it to. The teachings and guidance are there but it’s up to people to choose to adopt it.

I believe you are 100% right when you say people are going to continue doing the things they do just because they want to. And there’s nothing even God will do about it as He’s given humanity freedom of choice to choose its own destiny and path.

So nothing will be enforced. The quality of any future society will depend like now upon people’s voluntary individual and collective choices.
 
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