1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured To what extent did Muhammad meet the Messianic Requirements of Judaism and Christianity?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Aug 12, 2018.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,706
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    This is another discussion mainly for Theists.

    Many Christians and Jews are expecting the advent of another great religious leader. The expectations within Judaism relate to their sacred texts, for example a book in the Tanakh called Isaiah. For some Christians the question is framed around the term 'The Return of Christ'.

    The Central Figure in Judaism is Moses through whom God Revealed the Torah. In Christianity it was through Jesus we have the Gospels.

    During 610 AD Muhammad believing the angel Gabriel had brought a Message from God, revealed the Qur'an.

    To what extent if any, did Muhammad fulfil requirements of the Tanakh and/or the New Testament regarding a future Religious Leader with a new Revelation from God?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,462
    Ratings:
    +5,141
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Though I cast my vote as completely, it will require one to look at the scriptures with new eyes to consider if this is the case.

    Messanic expectations do not always fully unfold in the material world as we expect.

    Peace be to all
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,706
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    You may be right.

    Here's a short list of some the verses in regards Judaism, many of which originate from the book of Isaiah,

    Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

    Of course the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Baha'is are all going to have a different take on those verses. There are verses referring to world peace which I can not see Islam delivering or any of the main faiths such as Christianity or Buddhism for that matter.

    Isaiah 2:2-5

    Isaiah 9:6-7

    Isaiah 11:1-10

    That is why I believe Muhammad partially fulfils some of the requirements but not them all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,462
    Ratings:
    +5,141
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    That is definitely a plausable way to see it. The Message of Muhammad appears to have unfolded in this material world without fulfilling all Messanic requirements.

    It will be interesting to explore other ways of considering those scriptures. I reflect on the passages that say every eye shall see, but consider we do need sleep and not every material eye does see :)

    Peace be upon you and all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    5,584
    Ratings:
    +3,137
    Religion:
    Jewish
    If you are asking Jews then you are asking to what extent Jesus filled the requirements as understood by Jews. Here is one quick summary of those requirements (not all, just a few):

    "Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

    The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

    ---------------
    Here is another with more detail.

    and an even more in depth discussion.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,706
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Isaiah alluded to Revelations 1:7



    The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
    And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.


    Isaiah 40:3-5

    John the Baptist and then Christ fulfilled this:

    And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
    As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

    And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

    Luke 3:3-6

    Sleep well:)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,706
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Happy birthday @rosends

    Thanks for the response.

    If you re read the OP I'm asking to what extent Muhammad (not Christ) fulfilled the requirements.

    Islam has been around 1400 + years. I can't imagine you guys will be rushing off to become Muslims anytime soon then.:)
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    5,584
    Ratings:
    +3,137
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Jeepers...this is what I get for skimming and assuming. Profuse apologies...:oops:

    In that case, then asnwer is "even less."

    If the messianic prophecies are as I listed (referenced) then Muhammed didn't achieve them. But in addition, he was not Jewish nor from the Davidic dynasty.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Disqualifiers:

    There is a trajectory presented by the prophets; there is a level of wisdom required to understand the architecture presented.
    Even just having a few keywords proving a knowing of the prophecies would be nice, like 'Snare', 'Curse', 'Corner Stone', etc in correct context.

    Muhammad is not the Messiah, as the Messianic Age, where only the Godly remain, has not happened yet...

    Qualifiers:

    Sounding religiously the same as many cultures, doesn't prove you're a prophet.
    Saying you're the seal of the prophets, before the ending of the book's prophecies, isn't keeping to any timelines.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #9 wizanda, Aug 12, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
    • Creative Creative x 1
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    39,611
    Ratings:
    +13,503
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Is it your claim that the "Messianic Requirements of Judaism and Christianity" are identical?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,563
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    I'm with @Jayhawker Soule but more importantly why would you think Muhammad to be a messianic figure? I don't think historically even Muhammad saw himself that way.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,645
    Ratings:
    +1,931
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Hello, in a sense Muhammad saw Himself as a Promised One by Jesus.
    In the Quran, verse 6 of surah 61 which reads:

    “When Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of God to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.
    But when he came to them with clear signs, they said: This is obvious sorcery.” (Q. 61:6).
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    3,123
    Ratings:
    +2,844
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    Given that the biblical authors are rather xenophobically self-absorbed, him not being Jewish would certainly be a deal breaker. Christians might be okay with that, but they want some guy who looks like a Borgia to show up and claim to be Jesus like no time passed and like that's actually what he wants to be called for all eternity.

    I consider messengers to be messengers for their intended audience only. Not a single messenger I can think of has successfully created a message that resonates with every person on the planet (person = humans unless you also want to count every sentient being). That is why we have lots of them. "The eye cannot say to the hand" and all that. Different messengers take different tacks and you add them up and MAYBE see a body.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  14. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    813
    Ratings:
    +305
    Religion:
    Tawhid










    AND
    A compelling evidence that proves that the quran is different from Christianity and Judaism
    Is to convert Jews and Christians scholars to the religion of Islam
    If the Koran was a copy of the Bible and the gospel and say it would be a poor copy and not standard

    Why do Christians and Jews go to Islam?
    I will give you YouTube links to thousands of scientists who proclaim their Islam

    Most who enter Islam are cultured and upscale in Western societies

    A British scientist enters Islam and explains the reasons


    I do not want to put many links so as not to be annoying
    but write Jewish scholar enter Islam
    Christian Scholar enter Islam
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,462
    Ratings:
    +5,141
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    From my understanding the Messiah is to bring about a world consciousness of One God. I see Muhammad gave a Message with that as a component, at a time Christianity had doctrinated the Trinity.

    I hope to get a chance to read some of the above listed links tonight, as Prophecy is a tricky game. Like a new heaven and a new earth each time we get a Messenger from God. :)

    Peace be with you.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,854
    Ratings:
    +2,884
    Indeed - and played best by prophetic tricksters! And that's the danger here - I note that at least one poster has already played the David card on one side - I'm not sure whether Muhammad did that too but certainly Baha'u'llah tried it. I have a separate thread ongoing about that (Davidic Kingdom Covenant) , but it certainly does seem to be a key to both the Jewish and Christian identikit for the Messiah. So was Muhammad a descendant of David? If not, in what sense could he claim to occupy the throne of David as Messiah?

    PS - I voted no idea - but I reserve the right to change that if someone convinces me one way or t'other!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    813
    Ratings:
    +305
    Religion:
    Tawhid
    This is the mistake in which the Jews fall
    They believe that the path of God must pass through them

    They think others want to steal their property
    occupy the throne of David throne of David

    We believe that the prophet David will not serve us on the Day of Judgment like mercy and intercession
    But we believe in him as a respected prophet

    we offer respect to the Prophet of David free of charge
    As a saying
    O God, bless the Prophet David

    Muhammad is the one who helped Judaism and Christianity to stand up and support it because Muhammad is from Bani Ismail

    Ismail the great nation and the great prophet
    Isaac and Jacob were the prophets
    Search | com.com

    Let us look at the verses from the NIV Bible:
    "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 17:20)"

    "What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 4:7-8)"

    In the above verses, we first see a clear promise from GOD Almighty that He will make a "great nation" from Ishmael's descendents. We then see the definition of "great nation" as being a nation that directly receives a Law from GOD Almighty.

    This is all great and agreeing with Islam. Let us look at what Allah Almighty said about the Jewish Law in the Noble Quran:
    "It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. (The Noble Quran, 5:44)"

    When a person finds a scientific truth, the media makes noise, noise and an intellectual epic
    Whereas if the Qur'an speaks of scientific facts, they justify this by linking it to Satan, and so because they do not support Islam because it opposes their beliefs


    There are scientific facts found in the Qur'an that are not found in the Scriptures
    However, the name of Muhammadim is in Tura
    The Jews are sure of this in many meetings but are being restricted
    I will also give you the Samaritan Jewish they accept mohammed as prophet

    The Quran: Unchallangeable Miracle
    Miracles of Quran
    Quran and miracles - Wikipedia
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,854
    Ratings:
    +2,884
    So that's a no then is it? I mean there is no sense in which Muhammad could claim to be either the Jewish or Christian Messiah that does not involve completely overturning the traditional Jewish or Christian Messianic concept?
     
  19. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    3,123
    Ratings:
    +2,844
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    True, but back when written, their definition of "world" was waaaaay tinier that it actually is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,462
    Ratings:
    +5,141
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes that is true, but the vision was for a distant future.

    Kelly we are in that future, what immense joy is ours. :)

    Peace be with you.
     
Loading...