To what extent are Islamic terrorists inspired by Muhammad and the Quran?

[BilliardsBall]

I suspect you confuse Christian apologists for scholars. There are undoubtedly passages in the Sira and Hadiths that refer to Muhammad as being violent, but scholarship concerns the reliability of such accounts, not just taking these accounts at face value when it suits.

Or put another way, we can accept that Muhammed may not have been violent after first rejecting the Qu'ran as inspired.

 

[Wasp]

They are wrong by YOUR interpretation. They are RIGHT by their interpretation. And frankly, I don’t care which one is right. It does not change the fact that they believe they are correct in murdering people in the name of their religion.

You missed a sentence from my post:

as well as the fact that some of them have openly admitted they always knew they were false interpretations...

 

[Wasp]

Or put another way, we can accept that Muhammed may not have been violent after first rejecting the Qu'ran as inspired.

Elaborate.

 

[Wasp]

The text assumes knowledge of the Biblical characters and narratives.It doesn't introduce/explain many Biblical characters/events it just assumes people are already familiar with them.

Also a significant portion of the Quran is a commentary on Judaism/Christianity.

Of course there is an intertextual relationship.

I said there is no (intertextual) relationship to speak of.

 

[Augustus]

I said there is no (intertextual) relationship to speak of.

And I pointed out that you were wrong. Unless you are saying that the Abraham, Moses, Jesus of the Quran are completely different people to those in the Bible there is, by definition, an intertextual relationship.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Elaborate.

Is the Qu'ran a document concerning an historical person, Muhammed? He was violent, as depicted in the Qu'ran and in history.

 

[sooda]

Is the Qu'ran a document concerning an historical person, Muhammed? He was violent, as depicted in the Qu'ran and in history.

Genesis 14:14: "And when Abram heard that [Lot] was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

 

[Shad]

I suspect you confuse Christian apologists for scholars.

Often one can be both. A lot of scholars of various religions are believers of those same religions. So even commenting on the religion can be seen as apologetic.

There are undoubtedly passages in the Sira and Hadiths that refer to Muhammad as being violent, but scholarship concerns the reliability of such accounts, not just taking these accounts at face value when it suits.

There are whole schools of scholars that believe ahadith as authentic. You are conflating secular scholars as if all scholars. This is a problem when the topic is about religion as religion is taught from birth.

 

[Wasp]

And I pointed out that you were wrong. Unless you are saying that the Abraham, Moses, Jesus of the Quran are completely different people to those in the Bible there is, by definition, an intertextual relationship.

And I said "not.... To speak of"

One might think that they were different people...

 

[Wasp]

Often one can be both. A lot of scholars of various religions are believers of those same religions. So even commenting on the religion can be seen as apologetic.



There are whole schools of scholars that believe ahadith as authentic. You are conflating secular scholars as if all scholars. This is a problem when the topic is about religion as religion is taught from birth.

He possibly meant that not all hadiths are to be taken as authentic.

 

[Wasp]

Is the Qu'ran a document concerning an historical person, Muhammed?

Not exactly...

 

[Shad]

He possibly meant that not all hadiths are to be taken as authentic.

Sure. However some of the most damning ahadith are considered authentic by the dominate branch of Islam. So an individual here and there rejecting X does not make much of a difference as the standard used to authentic a source is based on religion and modern view not secular scholarship.

 

[Wasp]

Sure. However some of the most damning ahadith are considered authentic by the dominate branch of Islam. So an individual here and there rejecting X does not make much of a difference as the standard used to authentic a source is based on religion and modern view not secular scholarship.

Really? I must have missed them? Can you remember any?

 

[Shad]

Really? I must have missed them? Can you remember any?

Nothing specific of the top of my head that I can cite in detail. There is the consummation with Aisha. Execution of those that leave the religion. Execution of male teenagers after one siege (Jewish tribe). Torture. About what one would expect from a 7th century warlord.

 

[sooda]

Nothing specific of the top of my head that I can cite in detail. There is the consummation with Aisha. Execution of those that leave the religion. Execution of male teenagers after one siege (Jewish tribe). Torture. About what one would expect from a 7th century warlord.

Read Genesis 14.. Abraham was also a warlord.

 

[Wasp]

Nothing specific of the top of my head that I can cite in detail. There is the consummation with Aisha. Execution of those that leave the religion. Execution of male teenagers after one siege (Jewish tribe). Torture. About what one would expect from a 7th century warlord.

Aisha's age is calculated to have been about 19-21 at the time. People in Arabia didn't know their ages at that time. There are plenty of other incorrect ages in the hadiths as well.

Excecution of apostates is always only when a person becomes a threat; rebels against the Muslims on one way or another. I don't know what male teenagers or torture.

 

[sooda]

Nothing specific of the top of my head that I can cite in detail. There is the consummation with Aisha. Execution of those that leave the religion. Execution of male teenagers after one siege (Jewish tribe). Torture. About what one would expect from a 7th century warlord.

Aisha was born before the Call so she was closer to 20 years old.

 

[Shad]

Aisha's age is calculated to have been about 19-21 at the time. People in Arabia didn't know their ages at that time. There are plenty of other incorrect ages in the hadiths as well.

Not according to a Sunni hadith which is considered authentic by Sunni Islam

Excecution of apostates is always only when a person becomes a threat; rebels against the Muslims on one way or another. I don't know what male teenagers or torture.

Not according to the hadith.

Aisha was born before the Call so she was closer to 20 years old.

Not according to the hadith.

Both you just highlight the problem. There is no standard for authenticity. You both just pick what aligns with modern values disregarding past views as it makes you comfortable. Neither of you even questioned the authenticity nor method used.

 

[sooda]

Not according to a Sunni hadith which is consider authentic.



Not according to the hadith.

Which hadith? She was born before the Call.

 

[Shad]

Which hadith? She was born before the Call.

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*combined two previous posts into my previous reply