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Featured To what extent are Islamic terrorists inspired by Muhammad and the Quran?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    According to traditions Muhammad experienced His first Revelation from God through the angel Gabriel in the cave of Hira 610 AD. The Quran was revealed over the next two decades. Muhammad taught His people they should turn away from polytheism and be like the Christians and Jews and worship the One True God. This Divine Message was not well received by Muhammad’s people, particularly the Quraysh who arose to destroy Him and His followers. The Muslims fled to Medina, but they were pursued and so had to defend themselves in several battles. Muhammad and the Muslims were ultimately triumphant and went on to unite the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula.

    Some of the Quran was composed during war time. Certain verses if taken out of context could be seen as condoning violence. Did the example of Muhammad’s willingness to take up arms when necessary (albeit for self defence) provide inspiration for future generations to take up arms during other times of need?

    So with this thread I’d like to explore to what extent Muslim extremists are inspired by the Quran and Muhammad Himself? What about other influences such as the Hadiths, Sira and the early history of Islamic expansion? Are there parallels within Christianity’s expansion and history of violence? How do you see it and why?
     
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  2. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann Restricted by request

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    (Off-topic) What about thinking why even interested in this matter. Fear has reason, and in a hand hand without wounds (no real virtue, metta), how could poison ever penetrate into?
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The sacred writings of the Abrahamic Faiths can be a source of enormous inspiration, comfort and strength for millions. The verses of the Hebrew Testament, New Testament and Quran can promote the greatest nobility of the human spirit. The verses from the same books can also be used to promote war, hatred and estrangement.

    It would be unwise of me to believe I understand your motivation. I would urge caution in you trying to understand mine.
     
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  4. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann Restricted by request

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    As an open book (don't forget some monks can read mind)

    While single trouble may be violent, communism or group socialism lead always to war. Something to think about.

    As far as known householder Adrian is more interested into go after a job as to care about elders and parents himself. What's his "beef" with those who like to beat each other? Fear of damaging business?
     
  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    The challenge in achieving proper understanding of the Qur'an and of Islaam itself is not nearly so much in what is in the book, as in what both fail to include and to be.

    Ironically enough, given their self-imposed mission and particularly their main strategy, both suffer mainly from falling short of what they purport to be.

    There are indeed parallels with Christianity, but they end up highlightning how incomplete and flawed Islaam is, out of its own fault. Christianity is not quite as determined in forbiding itself from ever being a functional religion. It is not quite as obsessed with God for the sake and glory of monotheism. It is not quite as taken by hubris (another grim irony).

    Because the Qur'an is ultimately a rulebook for dealing with its God and with the separation between believers in its message and Other People, it does not actually aim to be scripture, no matter how oblivious to that simple fact so many Muslims and so many of the critics of Islaam end up being. A scripture has religious intent. The Qur'an does not meddle in religious matters, although it makes an impressive effort at telling otherwise.

    Insistence does not always attain results. Islaam falls short by its own stated parameters, because it is hopelessly confused by its own message, which suffers from teaching worship of monotheism and calling that religion.

    Monotheism is not religion, and it is not even particularly healthy for religiosity. But it is superb as fertile ground for fanaticism and social illness, and it shows.

    The Sira, the Hadiths and various personal, social and cultural circunstances sometimes aggravate those flaws. But far more often, it seems to me, they actually attempt to compensate for them, often to great success. Alas, that only means that Islaam needs its own heretics to save its worth and viability. Going back at least to the Battle of the Camel, the best and wiser among Muslims have a hard time trying to find reasons not to leave it entirely.
     
    #5 LuisDantas, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    If true, that's an impressive skill to be able to read the mind of another across the miles. You may like to tell me the verse from the Christian Bible I am thinking of? That could be a life changing moment for us both.
     
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  7. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    From their personal perspective, all of them.

    This might be a less well known example (copy/paste from another thread):

    In early Islam, the Caliph, as God's deputy on Earth, was responsible for defining correct practice. Strange as it may seem, it was not the sunna of the Prophet that defined correct practice, but the sunna of the caliph.

    The association of key proto-Sunni sunni figures with mutatawwia movement led to their rise to preeminence and permanently changed Islamic politics and also religion itself (by newly placing hadiths as the key tool for interpreting correct religious practices).

    Scholars associated with this movement also compiled most the canonical Hadith collections. Interestingly, they were Persians rather than Arabs, as were most of the key mutatawwia. So Arab Caliphs ended up being weakened via a Persian dominated movement.


    Privatized Jihad and Public Order in the Pre-Seljuq Period: The Role of the Mutatawwi'a, Deborah Tor, Iranian Studies, Vol. 38, No. 4 (Dec., 2005), pp. 555-573

    The effective halting of the Jihad-and, even worse, the reversal of the offensive into Muslim territory-must have posed an unprecedented crisis for the Faithful. The Jihad, a central tenet of the faith, one which had constituted the main focus of the Caliphate's endeavours from the very beginning of the Islamic polity, had fallen into abeyance. Obviously, the resulting moral and mili-tary vacuum at the frontier could not last-and, indeed, it did not. What has been termed "the Jihad State" may have ended, but the Jihad itself did not; it simply became what we today would call "privatized;" that is, it went from cen-trally directed state campaigns to independent, non-governmentally controlled, smaller scale raids led and manned by mutatawwia, volunteer warriors for the faith. This transferral of religious leadership in the Jihad, from the caliph to the mutatawwia, in turn led to truly fundamental changes in all areas of Islamic civilization.

    Religiously, the mutatawwi'a movement brought about a revolution regarding the proper role of the political authorities in the Jihad... There was a deep ideological conflict expressed in these two opposing views: namely, do political leaders have religious control over the Jihad, or is it, rather, a religious obligation in which any believer may engage at any time-as he is entitled to do with, say, the giving of alms-irrespective of the political authority. It was the latter view, the view of the mutatawwi'a, which won (at least in 'Iraq), and was eventually adopted by both the Shafi'ite and Hanbalite schools.

    The ramifications of this mutatawwi' victory were immense. Again in the religious sphere, the early mutatawwi'a played a decisive role in the consolidation of Sunnism-and particularly Hanbalism-in the decades around the turn of the third Hijri century. The mutatawwi' emphasis on the individual responsibilities of the believer before God-particularly concerning the Jihad-and on guidance by the Prophetic Sunna weakened the religious role of the Caliph, and marked, if not the beginning, certainly one of the most significant steps in the process Crone and Hinds have described as the transition from Caliphal to Prophetic sunna, and also accords well with the timeline they present.24 Thus, the mutatawwi'a, the militant arm of the proto-Sunni Traditionists, played a significant role in Sunnism's victory through the religious prestige they acquired in their role in leading the Jihad...

    The rise of the mutatawwi'a, and the significance of their victory in reshaping the Jihad, was not limited to the religious sphere, though; it was fraught with pol-itical consequences as well. Jihad had traditionally lain at the heart of the Muslim polity from the time of the Prophet; the very first governmental organization, the diwan, had been an outcome of this focus on bringing God's rule to the Dar al-Harb. The fact that the Jihad now passed largely out of governmental hands meant that a major factor in the religious identification of Islam with the government was removed. More importantly, since the nongovernmental mutatawwi view of the Jihad was part of a complete religious outlook regarding the relative worth of the contemporaneous imamate compared to that of the Prophet and the early Muslims as preserved by the Traditionists, the undermining effect that the mutatawwi'i victory in the Jihad had upon the caliph's religious standing and authority was not and could not be limited to that one religious area. Rather, once the question of who would wield religious authority in Islam had been settled in favor of the Traditionists-in no small part, thanks to the prestige of the mutatawwi'a caliphal religious stature and authority crumbled, with political authority and power soon following in their wake.
     
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  8. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Can read their own justifications if you like:

    http://media.leeds.ac.uk/papers/pmt/exhibits/2800/Management_of_Savagery.pdf

    Management of Savagery - Wikipedia

    I summarised some of the main points here The Management of Savagery but more from a strategic than a religious standpoint.
     
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  9. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Is this offensive or just perceptive?

    islam
     
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  10. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann Restricted by request

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    By their rules, if they can, they would not be allowed to demonstrate such toward lay people (pc8, Cv.V.8.2).
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Here's the summary of the most relevant section from what you have provided:

    Summary: To tell an unordained person of one's actual superior human attainments is a pācittiya offense.

    Perhaps you should not have disclosed your superior status to a lowly householder such as myself?
     
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  12. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    There's no need to explain why a religion, a nation, or a tribe would defend itself from an attack.So, what motivates the aggressor?

    I think we humans have an unconscious need to prove ourselves superior to others, a need which credibly explains group prejudice and the motivation to attack competing groups.

    In other words, I think religion, nationalism and tribalism are merely the pretexts for warlike aggression. The underlying reason is to prove the group's superiority in human worth.

    If religion had not been invented, more wars would have been fought on other pretexts.
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I'm not easily offended, but I can see how the cartoon would be offensive to some Muslims.

    Whether or not Islam has Divine origins is not the main concern of this thread for me. Whatever the origins, over 1,400 years since Muhammad had His first visions, it has become a religion that around one quarter of the world's population identify with. From reading the Quran it is easy for me to appreciate how the words could have been positively transformative for so many. I can also appreciate from some passages and the history of Islam how fundamentalism and extremism have resulted. In turn another form of extremism has arisen where the religion of Islam is denigrated and vilified. I don't know if Islamophobia is the best word. I've seen all this happen with the religion I grew up with, Christianity. Now I'm trying to make better sense of how history has unfolded in regard both Islam and Christianity.
     
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  14. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann Restricted by request

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    Not tohat such is not because someone is lower, householder Adrian, but because some whould use it for gains. And as to "have disclosed": that householders agendas here are open like a book does really not require mind reading. As for "there are monks who can read mind", is always good to consider, since cheating a possible noble One is huge bad kamma. But cheating ordinary people as well. So just to know and consider since a whether God nor Buddha could change ones kammic-effects, make them undone.

    Good that householder read sometimes althought not for the purpose to tame himself but to defend.

     
  15. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Do you agree with Anne Marie Waters or do you think that she and people like her should be silenced?



    Is stating the truth about Islam Hate Speech?

    Should anyone that criticises Islam be punished?
     
    #15 Notanumber, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Should anyone who criticised Islam be punished? No.

    Should Anne Marie Waters be silenced?

    Anne Marie Waters - Wikipedia

    I'm not that familiar with English politics so can't really comment.

    I do know that England are currently thrashing New Zealand in the world cup cricket game.
    https://www.google.co.nz/search?sou...FjrA#sie=m;/g/11g0mjln2c;5;/m/021vk;dt;fp;1;;

    I'd like to put a stop to that!
     
  17. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    The fact that she is called far-right is a given for anyone that does not support Islam and its ambitions.

    I was asking you as a moderate supporter of Islam if you agreed with what she said in the video that I posted or do you think that she and people like her should be silenced?

    Are you not concerned that the United Nations takes a different stance to you over punishment for criticising Islam?

    Islamic terrorists are only the foot soldiers, political Islam should be the major concern of the West.

    You may not be familiar with English politics as I am not familiar with New Zealand politics but I do know that political Islam is active in both countries.
     
  18. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    I would guess that Mohammed defended himself at first... I would guess that in that victory, he saw that as Allah working through him.

    ...And through that pride, Mohammad began expanding not defensively, but aggressively. And so we see then verses in the Koran based on war.
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I watched the video and didn't think anything she said should warrant her being silenced. I do believe in free speech but think there should be limits when it comes to promoting hatred and intolerance.

    I'm aware there are ideological forms of Islam that are political and a few of these have extreme elements.

    The United Nations does not determine the laws in either of our countries though has become increasingly influential.

    My personal beliefs in regard Islam, is that Muhammad was a Messenger of God and the Quran is Divinely inspired. As the religion came out of Arabian in the seventh century there are aspects that are no longer applicable for our modern age and in some places Islam is in dire need of reform. I support freedom of religion and when one religion prevents that freedom as Islam does in some places then criticism and freedom of speech become essential.
     
  20. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I do not think that Quran inspires terrorists. I think that the natural “I” versus “them” belief of ego is the cause of terrorism and all other ills. Scripture actually dispels this myth. Scripture teaches patience to man and teaches ways to overcome man’s natural hatred full nature.

    Although all Abrahamic scripture contain violent instructions, I believe that they should be read carefully in context.

    I am very fond of the following two verses of Quran and often share these with people who have only negative view of Islam and Quran.

    2.44
    Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense?

    2.213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.


    But my Islam hating friends retort back with verses such as the following that admittedly can have disastrous consequences. What is idolator? According to Hindus, idolators are those who are worshippers of body as self and pay no attention to the divine soul that powers the body. OTOH, all Abrahamic folks think that Hindus worship idols. Those are foolish guys actually.

    But, it is true that the following verse (and similar other verses) can be easily misinterpreted and misused.

    9.005 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    ...

    I believe that the verses 2.44 and 2.213 over ride all other apparently hatred full teachings but I often see that people on different sides do not believe as I do. The greatest example is the version of Islam promoted and exported by the Saudis and indirectly supported by USA.

    I believe that it is duty of every religious person to not get swayed by hate mongering by people of politics who use religion for political reasons. Was institution of a Jewish state a religious or spiritual action? And similarly are violent actions of so called Islamic terrorists for control of land all over the world any spiritual action?

    Many in India, rightly or wrongly, feel that India has borne the brunt of Islamic terrorism for centuries. In current times, this feeling has been fuelled by a rightist party to gain power.

    It is ironical that it is leftists, who are materialists and atheists that counter the rightist agenda everywhere.
     
    #20 atanu, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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