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To Love And To Loose vs. Never Loving At All

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
Does desiring nothing really lead to a better life? Is is even possible to not desire anything?

The only reason any of us exist is because of desire. If your parents never had the desire, you wouldn't exist.

Suppressing desires only makes them stronger. Desire can be masked and restrained, but not permanently obliterated. Desiring and not having leads to suffering. Over long term it can easily develop into bitterness and regret.

Having what we desire can make us happy and that happiness can outweigh the suffering of loosing it. For example, I have found great happiness in desiring my wife. Before I met her, you could say I was suffering, because I desired a wife and didn't have one. Now that I have her my love for her gives me a happiness I could not have had otherwise. I know it won't last forever. One of us is bound to die before the other. Do Buddhists believe it is better to have never loved at all than to have loved and lost? If she and I are happy together for a lifetime, will that not outweigh the suffering of loosing her at the end? If I suppressed my desire for her, and divorced her, wouldn't my feelings come back to haunt me later in life and make me regret?

Desiring the wrong things can make us suffer. If I cheated on my wife it would cause years of suffering on her part and mine. Gambling and drug addiction can lead to great unhappiness.

I think it is much better to desire realistically and wisely than to not desire anything at all. I think that the day I stop desiring is the day my life is over.

I say all this from a western point of view. Perhaps in other countries there is extreme poverty and discrimination among the classes and greater opportunity for suffering. It might be suffering to desire anything more than a handfull of rice. Perhaps in some circumstances it is best not to desire anything since you will never have anything anyway.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Kungfuzed said:
Does desiring nothing really lead to a better life? Is is even possible to not desire anything?

The only reason any of us exist is because of desire. If your parents never had the desire, you wouldn't exist.

Suppressing desires only makes them stronger. Desire can be masked and restrained, but not permanently obliterated. Desiring and not having leads to suffering. Over long term it can easily develop into bitterness and regret.

Having what we desire can make us happy and that happiness can outweigh the suffering of loosing it. For example, I have found great happiness in desiring my wife. Before I met her, you could say I was suffering, because I desired a wife and didn't have one. Now that I have her my love for her gives me a happiness I could not have had otherwise. I know it won't last forever. One of us is bound to die before the other. Do Buddhists believe it is better to have never loved at all than to have loved and lost? If she and I are happy together for a lifetime, will that not outweigh the suffering of loosing her at the end? If I suppressed my desire for her, and divorced her, wouldn't my feelings come back to haunt me later in life and make me regret?

Desiring the wrong things can make us suffer. If I cheated on my wife it would cause years of suffering on her part and mine. Gambling and drug addiction can lead to great unhappiness.

I think it is much better to desire realistically and wisely than to not desire anything at all. I think that the day I stop desiring is the day my life is over.

I say all this from a western point of view. Perhaps in other countries there is extreme poverty and discrimination among the classes and greater opportunity for suffering. It might be suffering to desire anything more than a handfull of rice. Perhaps in some circumstances it is best not to desire anything since you will never have anything anyway.

I think we're looking at a translation problem, Kungfuzed. The Buddhist term that often gets translated as "desire" is Trishna. But Trishna does NOT mean exactly the same thing the English word desire means. And I think that has confused you somewhat.

In many cases, Trishna is better translated as "attachment" or "clingingness" than "desire". Suppose you were in a classic co-dependency with your wife such that you became insanely jealous whenever another man looked at her --- that would be Trishna. In such a case, you would be attached to her as if she were your life itself. You would be clinging to her to give your life meaning. Does that sound healthy to you? That's Trishna.
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
Sunstone said:
I think we're looking at a translation problem, Kungfuzed. The Buddhist term that often gets translated as "desire" is Trishna. But Trishna does NOT mean exactly the same thing the English word desire means. And I think that has confused you somewhat.

In many cases, Trishna is better translated as "attachment" or "clingingness" than "desire". Suppose you were in a classic co-dependency with your wife such that you became insanely jealous whenever another man looked at her --- that would be Trishna. In such a case, you would be attached to her as if she were your life itself. You would be clinging to her to give your life meaning. Does that sound healthy to you? That's Trishna.

I still don't see the difference. Even if I'm not insanely jealous, I still have a strong bond with my wife and will suffer when we are finally separated. There are different levels of attatchment, some healthy and some not. An attatchment of mutual love is healthy. An attatchment of desperation is unhealthy. Either way I will still suffer if I still love her this much when we part.

What about parents and children. Do they not cling to each other? Does a mother not cling to her baby as if her life depended on it? Is that Trishna?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Kungfuzed said:
I still don't see the difference. Even if I'm not insanely jealous, I still have a strong bond with my wife and will suffer when we are finally separated. There are different levels of attatchment, some healthy and some not. An attatchment of mutual love is healthy. An attatchment of desperation is unhealthy. Either way I will still suffer if I still love her this much when we part.

What about parents and children. Do they not cling to each other? Does a mother not cling to her baby as if her life depended on it? Is that Trishna?

Of course those things are Trishna. I think any Buddhist would tell you that as long as you are content to be attached to things, very much including your wife, there is no reason for you to seek release. If, on the other hand, there comes a day when you wish release, then Buddhism will be there for you. Until then, you would only be playing a game to pretend that you wanted release when you did not actually want it.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Kungfuzed said:
I still don't see the difference. Even if I'm not insanely jealous, I still have a strong bond with my wife and will suffer when we are finally separated. There are different levels of attatchment, some healthy and some not. An attatchment of mutual love is healthy. An attatchment of desperation is unhealthy. Either way I will still suffer if I still love her this much when we part.

What about parents and children. Do they not cling to each other? Does a mother not cling to her baby as if her life depended on it? Is that Trishna?
Attachment and desire are different. Attachment is born of desire. You are quite right that desire is completely natural, and close family ties are a good example. You are also quite right that desire cannot be eliminated. Even stringent Buddhists will experience desire. It is what they do with it based on their understanding of attachment that differs perhaps from non-Buddhists. The aim of understanding attachment as misery is to moderate reactivity to vicissitudes of life. Reaction can only lead to compounding problems associated with unhealthy attachment. On the other hand, understanding of attachment as impermanent helps moderate reactivity to the loss of wanted attachment, such as in the case of the death of a loved one.

I think the confusion of equating attachment with desire stems from an idea that non-attachment necessitates withdrawal from the world in order to control desire. However, this is the antithesis of what Buddhism aims to achieve. Buddhist understanding of attachment aims to help one to live within the world, in a healthy way. In classic Buddhist teaching, desire is replaced by compassion. The capacity to achieve this is based on impermanence. We think of our family ties as close. Ultimately Buddhism would aim to achieve a capacity for compassion towards anyone, as if they were a family member.
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
It's starting to make some sense. I was under the impression that Buddhists attempt to remove all desire and thought, becomming an empty vessel in order to acheive enlightenment. Most of what I know is from movies and documentaries. It makes much more sense to focus on our reactions to desire and attatchment rather than eliminate it altogether.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Kungfuzed said:
It's starting to make some sense. I was under the impression that Buddhists attempt to remove all desire and thought, becomming an empty vessel in order to acheive enlightenment. Most of what I know is from movies and documentaries. It makes much more sense to focus on our reactions to desire and attatchment rather than eliminate it altogether.
Hence the confusion. Elimination of desire is not something anyone in this world can achieve, Buddhist or not. Physiological needs are the foundation of desire. The capacity to label/describe awareness of desire is intrinsically human.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Pardus said:
When something is a problem do away with it, sounds familiar, never works IMO.
I like the 6 monthly council cleanup to do away with big problems.
 
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