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Featured To Know or Not To Know... That Is The Question

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Tony Price 77, May 1, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe your conclusion is wrong because your premises are wrong.
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I believe you read the Bible with minimal understanding. because there are ways that can happen. For instance, god is said to be infallible, a part of his accepted nature.

    in·fal·li·ble
    inˈfaləb(ə)l/
    adjective: infallible
    incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
    The following is from Got Questions, an online Christian ministry that provides answers to questions surrounding Christian doctrines, general religion, science, and what the Bible says about such things.

    "Question: "Does God make mistakes?"

    Answer: God makes no mistakes. His perfection and greatness disallow mistakes: “Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.” (Psalm 145:3). In the original language, the word translated “fathom” incorporates the thought of “possible to find out or enumerate.” In other words, God’s greatness is infinite. This statement cannot refer to a fallible person, for, with even one mistake, his greatness would be quantifiable and finite.
    source
    Yet we read

    Genesis 6:6-7
    6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

    1 Samuel 15:11
    11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night.

    Jeremiah 42:10
    If you will only remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant
    you, and not pluck you up; for I am sorry for the disaster that I have brought upon you.

    Q: So why do we regret or feel sorry for the things we did? Because they were the right things to do? Hardly. We regret and feel sorry because they were the wrong things to do. We were wrong to do them, as was god for what he did.

    God made mistakes. He is fallible.

    .


     
    #22 Skwim, May 5, 2018
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  3. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    Completely the wrong context because it ignores the concept of free will given to men. It would be the same as parents "regretting" that they had conceived a wayward son or daughter. That would not be admitting to having made a "mistake" - rather regret that the child had misused their free will, with an inference of serious consequences, such as disinheritance.

    In other words when God regrets, it is not to be taken literally, but rather as an allegation of an abuse of free will by the one causing the regret that will result in adverse consequences.

    As for the initial inquiry, the LORD in the context of Gen 18 is the angel of the Lord, not God himself. Angels take on the identity of YHWH because they are his servants. So even though it self-identifies as Jehova, it is really referring to the angel of Jehova in this context, and in every other context where Jehova interacts directly with men. Angels are not God the Father even though they convey the message of God the Father.
     
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  4. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    This is so absurd that it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


    Have a good day.

    .
     
  5. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    "I love my children ... but there are times I regret having them" is a frequent idiom used by parents of children. Does not mean that they acknowledge that they made a mistake. It means that the long term purposes or benefits of having children are sometimes outweighed and masked by the short term burden of having them at all.

    You really don't seem to comprehend the fundamental part that free will bears in God's plans, but that God's purposes always supervene. To create a man with free will is to create a man capable of evil. God can regret such a creation, but utilize the same for his purposes. That is a core biblical principle.

    Thus in Romans 9:22 God bears with long suffering those destined for wrath. Doubtless in OT terms, it could be said that he "regreted" such persons having been born, but the ultimate purposes of God are greater than his temporary regret at such behaviour. God does not make mistakes for his purposes supersede his regrets.
     
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  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Did god say his regrets are "there are times" regrets? Not at all. The implication of his regrets is that they're eternal.


    Actually, I believe freewill is nothing more than an illusion people create for themselves. So any argument wherein it's suppose to play some part fails right out of the starting gate. Just so you know. ;)

    .
     
  7. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    But as your argument is that God "changes his mind so he cannot be God," then you're denying the premise of your own argument by saying that his "regret" must always be eternal. Such regret with God is equivalent to "sorrow at sin." God prefers repentance to death, so such a figure of speech shows that the sinner has gone past the point of no return.

    And one should never push words beyond their context and contextual meanings. God does not change, in any event. The anthropomorphisms of attributing human-like attributes to God is by way of explaining things from the human perspective. As I said before, if a parent regrets a child being born, it can mean that it has exercised its free will in an unacceptable way and faces being killed or disinherited. It is ultimately a figure of speach with an obviously and seriously negative connotation.

    Everyone has the free will to choose between right and wrong. Just so you know. ;)
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I never made such an argument, and because you're trying palm it off as something I said, putting quotation marks around it, I'm done here. Go and screw with someone else's posts. You're not worth my time.

    .
     
  10. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    "God regrets ==> God made mistakes ==> God is fallible. " was your argument. The whole gist of your argument is that application of the word regret shows that God is fallible and inconsistent,

    Why then should God "regretting" be eternal? Surely he can regret his regret too? Obviously he can. In fact he is a thoroughly unstable character by your exegesis.

    Incidentally the word "regret" does not appear in the KJV or NIV. It rather is treated as "God changes his stance over a certain person." In 1Sa 15:35 that person was Saul the king, whom is probably the most notorious case of God changing his mind about a person. What the text tells us is that Saul fell out of favour with God and was replaced by David, because he did not do God's will. In this case God's "regret" was eternal and he did not change his mind about Saul.

    Yet there is a case of God appearing to change his mind in answer to prayer vis-a-vis Hezekiah. 2 Kings 20:1-6, "You shall die and not live...I will add 15 years to your life."

    This shows that God interacts with mankind, such that not even (anthropomorphic) decrees of death meted out by his prophets in his name are fixed, where there is subsequent repentance of the one sentenced. So we see that anthropomorphisms can be approximations of the will of God, unless they are prophesies formally delivered in writing and written up as scripture, in which case they cannot be changed cf. the betrayal of Jesus by Judas. ""The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him."

    So everything is contextual. You have to know the way of God to understand the will of God. As Christ said, to him who has more will be given. To him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.

    I fear you're not really trying to understand God at all. It is complicated where God must also interact with people as well as working out his divine purposes that are fixed and immutable.
     
    #30 outlawState, May 7, 2018
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    First, I'm not a JW. However I'm Christian and so I'll try to help you with this verse. I'll use the KJV because I don't really use the new world translation except maybe when talking to Jehovah's Witnesses or something.

    King James Version:
    And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

    The point of Genesis 18:20-21 is much better understood in context. So in context God was with 2 angels. These angels were then sent to Sodom disguised as peaceful travelers to see what the Sodomites would do to them. It was a test. If they passed the test, the city would be spared. But if they mistreated the two angels then God would consider their judgment final.

    Obviously, we don't know the exact details of the type of sins the people of Sodom were doing. However what we can guess is that they were preying on peaceful travelers that came through their land. You may notice how careful Abraham is on the other hand to entertain travelers. He is very kind to them and that was considered a big deal at the time. (And it still should be!) But anyway, the people of Sodom were apparently not too worried about angels disguised as travelers or anyone else bothering them about their lack of hospitality.

    So let's re-examine the text in this light.
    And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now,(in other words God would send the two angels, his representatives/messengers) and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, (in other words the messengers would be disguised as travelers to test the people of Sodom) which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. (in other words, God would judge the cities of the plain of Sodom according to the result of the test)

    So in conclusion. Of course God already knows. But the point God is making here is that He is going to be extra fair and do things in their proper order. Just like in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned; God still questioned them about it. In this case God is going to actually put them(the cities of the plain of Sodom) to one final test. A hospitality test. Which explains why the writer of Hebrews said:

    " Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." (Hebrews 13:2)
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe your premise is incorrect. Sorrow does not mean the person sorrowing caused the sorrow.
     
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    When one says: "I am sorry that I have made them" or "I am sorry for the disaster that I have brought upon you," it certainly does."

    .
     
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