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Featured To disprove evolution...

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Xavier Graham, Apr 20, 2022.

  1. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    I had an idea.
    Would it be possible to disprove portions of the evolution theory through this method?: One would have to prove that self aware consciousness is a unique human trait. Something about man has to be found that is uniquely human. I think it is our consciousness. After proving that no other animal is conscious like us, it would have to be proven that no other animal can develop a consciousness like us.
    This wouldn’t disprove parts of evolution like mutations or survival of the fittest. Those things are readily observable. This would call into question the common origin of man with all other species. If something can be found to be uniquely human, that is non attainable by any other animal through the power of evolution, well I think that would be telling.
    Just a thought.:)
     
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  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    But it's not, there are several animals that possess self awareness and even more that are conscious.
     
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  3. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    There is... something though that separates man from animal. Something about our method of cognition. That’s what my personal intuition tells me, surely influenced by my religious beliefs.
    Scientific thinking says that man is just a smart ape, it very well may be.
     
  4. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The classic test is the "mirror test" checking whether or not the animal is aware that the reflection in the mirror is the animal itself. Mirror test - Wikipedia
     
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  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    How would you even measure what you claim to exists? How would you test for it? Here is something that you should know, to even have evidence for one's ideas, which you do not have right now, one first needs a testable hypothesis. In other words, what is your explanation? What reasonable test based upon your idea's merits could possibly refute it? If you do not have a way of possibly refuting your idea you cannot even claim that you have evidence.

    As far as self awareness, quite a few animals have that. Moral sense? Ditto. Emotions? Ditto again. We may merely have more intense versions of those and even that may not be always true.
     
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  6. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Your idea that there's something separating people from animals is to me accurate but it's not physical.

    In Meher Baba's view, the soul develops during the journey through earlier forms and is finally fully developed in the human form. But that's not related to science but to the spiritual dimension of life. So it's not a matter of the evolution of forms which science (Darwin) has proven but another kind of evolution.
     
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  7. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    I’m no scientist, so bear with me :)
    I think man would have to explore the limits of the capacity of the human mind. What a religious man may call “enlightenment”. There could be a way to access a higher power through the mind, something an animal perhaps can’t do. Testable? Well I’ll spend my life trying to get enlightened and accessing the storehouse of universal power. That would be something no animal could do, and something I believe is achievable. Perhaps not by me, but by someone. Is that a reasonable test? I doubt you think so
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Is there? I don't think so, however i was raised on a farm seeing animals close up, most people don't have that life experience.

    And there lies the problem. Letting religion dictate your understanding of life.

    DNA does not lie, ask any prisoner on death row convicted on DNA evidence.

    Being a smart ape ain't so bad, I don't see why some religious belief has to put the idea down where the majority accept it and consider part of the wonder of life.
     
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  9. Sirona

    Sirona Hindu Wannabe

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    Depending on the species, you can teach animals funny things such as counting (cockatoo), using a symbol picture board to form two-word "sentences" (chimpanzee), tricks (whales, dolphins, sea lions, dogs etc.). The crux of the matter is the assertion in classical Western philosophy that animals, unlike humans, do not feel emotions and pain, and that therefore we van do whatever we want with them.
     
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  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I understand that those are your beliefs but you were the one that brought up the "prove" claim. I was merely telling you how you would have to do it. Frankly I am very sure that you would fail. That we are the product of evolution is about as set in stone as the concept of gravity.
     
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  11. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    But here's the rub...

    • ... there is something that separates bombardier beetle from animal. Something about their method of combining two chemicals in its body to create a heated chemically reactive substance
    • ... there is something that separates tardigrades (water bears) from animal. Something about their method of crystalizing the sugars inside their bodies to prop up their internal organs to be able to go dormant without water for 30+ years.
    • ... there is something that separates scarlet jellyfish from animal. Something about the way they can return to their polyp/juvenile stage when injured and regrow themselves into a fully operating adult again.

    There is no shortage of unique attributes that only specific animals of Earth possess. Ours happens to be some more developed form of abstract-thought-supporting brain function. It isn't any more "special" than any other unique characteristic. Just ask yourself - does "the universe" prize intelligence above all other possible traits? How would you know?
     
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  12. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    Do you not follow politics? :D
     
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  13. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    Personally I'm underwhelmed by this test and see this in the link: "agreement has been reached that animals can be self-aware in ways not measured by the mirror test."
     
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  14. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    Well that's obviously a crock. :rolleyes:
     
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  15. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Even if you established that humans have more advanced version of higher cognition than other animals, that wouldn't mean they're not animals or not descended from animals. Any more than the unique size of a blue whale or the unique eyes of a mantis shrimp makes them 'higher than animals.'
     
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  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    What? No. Proving unique human traits wouldn't disprove evolution.

    And you don't even need to worry about things as nebulous and hard to test as "self aware consciousness." There are plenty of traits that human have that no other animal has. For instance, humans are the only species that blush to express embarrassment.
     
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  17. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    There are plenty of traits of modern creatures that seem to be unique to them. The elephant's trunk, for instance. Are you trying to argue that therefore the elephant's trunk cannot be a product of evolution? Really?
     
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  18. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Just a quick question: why is it so important to you to try to disprove one of the most widely accepted and evidenced theories in human history? How would it make your life better?

    But also, I have to assume that you've never had a pet. Anybody who has ever had a dog or cat knows with complete clarity that their pets have feelings, emotions, moods, memory, preferences -- all sufficient indicators of consciousness.
     
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  19. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I agree. But the mirror test is sufficient to demonstrate that some animals are self-aware.
     
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  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Every species has traits that are unique to that species.
    It's those traits that actually define them as a seperate species...

    Think about it. If bonobo's didn't have traits that chimps have and vice versa... what then would be the difference between chimps and bonobo's? How would we tell them apart?

    Well, for starters, I reject the idea that our awareness / consciousness is unique.
    The other Great Apes share a lot more awareness / consciousness features with humans then many people think. Sure, humans have unique aspects. But so do the other apes. You are trying to make the unique human traits "special" and in need of a "special" explanation. This is no more then species vanity / narcissism.

    It would not, as common ancestry of species would remain a genetic fact.
    If your attempt to disprove evolution rests on trying to declare humans as "special" and "separate" from the rest of biology, then I'm sorry to say that your attempt is doomed to fail.

    This very subject has been extensively studied though comparative anatomy, comparative genetics, comparative psychology,... and nothing came out of those studies that warrants labeling humans as "special" or "separate". In fact, what we did find is that all those traits that we traditionally consider "special", actually have psychological underpinnings that we share with many other animals.

    Buried within human psychology are the remnants of the distant past, when we were nomadic tribes of hunters and gatherers, fighting over fire and avoiding to be eaten by dangerous predators.

    Good luck with that.
     
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