To Die For The Sin of Mankind – what does that really mean ?

[JerryMyers]

Agreed that Jesus taught he is not God!

So why do you insist he is the son of God as like God the Son??

Adam was created directly out of the imagination of Abraham. The first humans were not given names. There were generations of people already created and having children before the lies of Abraham were cast out into society and his followers began killing people for not believing in that talking snake.
The true creation outline by God, the Father of Jesus, ends in Genesis 2:4. Finished no more talking about it. Then the heathen animal and child sacrificing , war mongering religion that Abraham established so he could be a jealous, wrathful ruler is shown.
In chapter 1 of creation in Genesis by GOD, humans were created together AFTER plants and animals were created.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
The "US" are the plants and animals already created that humans need to eat to stay alive to build new cells throughout life. We are in the likeness of animals because we have flesh and blood, 4 limbs, one head, one heart, 2 eyes, etc. That is the formation of our body but we are made in the likeness of God because we are designed to have advanced intelligence with the ability to create a computer, fly in aircraft, understand math, physics, literature, etc. and we have the spiritual emotions of love and compassion for not only our specie but other species as well. Male and female are created in the same manner with programed DNA that evolves.
In Abraham's talking snake fiction, Adam is created BEFORE plants and animals are created. The truth is a woman was not created out of the rib of a man. A talking snake is as real as a flying reindeer.

Interesting. Again, care to share your source of information so that I can understand your resentment towards Abraham?

 

[JerryMyers]

Abraham was not the son of an idol maker.
God DID bless Abraham's children and gave them the promised land.
God DID bless all the people of the world through Abraham and his children.

But Abraham WAS the son of an idol maker. It’s just that you don’t know that.

 

[JerryMyers]

What is the source of information that Abraham's father was an idol maker?
That's OK I just read about an Islamic legend that says that.
The law about not making cloths from more than one type of fibre in the Mosaic law was imo about syncretism and not to believe in other religions while believing in YHWH and mixing the other beliefs with the truth.

You mean you never heard the story of Abraham and his idol-worshipping/maker father from the Jewish Genesis Rabba 38:13 (the midrash) ?? That’s OK I can understand how empty vessels make the most noise.

Anyway, here’s a youtube video I found about that story -

 

[JerryMyers]

Jesus wanted men to know that He is the one in Daniel 7:13,14 who is given an everlasting Kingdom
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

If you read the footnote at the bottom of Daniel 7 passage ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel 7&version=NIV ) you will find the phrase ‘son of man’ is a reference to a human being and if Daniel 7 was talking about Jesus, then Daniel 7 did not see Jesus as God but a human being.

 

[JerryMyers]

God did not put a ransom on anyone, but Jesus did come to satisfy the judgement of God that those who sin will die. Through the OT law we see the death of animals as a means to cover sins and that points to Jesus who did that fully for all sins and people that accept Him.
So I have evidence and even proof from the OT, the gospels and the rest of the NT. You have no evidence from the Bible at all.
Jesus ransomed "many" because not all accept Jesus.

Fact is Jesus himself said/implied he did not die after his so-called ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ and that fact just put a spanner in your understanding that Jesus literally died for your sin!

Those who accept Jesus do repent and do the will of their Lord, Jesus. Paul preached repentance and doing the will of God and James said that without works faith is dead. There is no contradiction between what Jesus taught and the rest of the NT.
It is what you teach that comes from other men, men who deny the Bible and the gospel message that can be seen throughout the Bible.

Another nonsense! Jesus never asked anyone to do to his will, but to do to the will of the Father who sent him and to whom he himself worship.

If you believe Jesus ask you to do to his will, then quote that verse where Jesus said so. Can you?? Let me say it again, you follow the preaching of other men, NOT Jesus.
.

Well Jesus did actually give His life as a ransom for many.

If by that you mean Jesus died for your sin, then, you are dead wrong, UNLESS you can show me where in the whole Bible did Jesus said he came to die for your sin, else, you are just talking NONSENSE!

I don't have to show where Jesus said exactly what you want Him to have said. He said enough about His death and resurrection and His followers taught what He had taught them.

It’s not that you don’t have to show, it’s that you have NOTHING to show!

You cannot show where Jesus said/implied that he did not die.

Of course, I can!

Jesus denied he was dead when he said, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” - Luke 24:39

Can anyone who did not die become a ghost?? By saying he’s NOT a ghost, Jesus is saying he was not killed/dead as people have thought and believed.

Interestingly too, Luke 24:39 also debunked the Christians’ perception that Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks when he showed his hands to his disciples and asked them to touch him – nope, he showed his hands and asked them to touch him to prove to them he did NOT die. So, don’t listen to the words of other people, listen to the words of Jesus!

If Jesus is CLEARLY saying he’s not dead in Luke 24:39 then, how can he rise from the dead when, by Jesus' own admission, he’s not dead in the first place !!!??

All you can do is show how you twist some scriptures and deny others because you do not believe what they tell us.

On the contrary, it looks like it’s you who twist your own scriptures to ‘tailor-fit’ the words of other people and you are right, I don’t believe the words of these people who literally dictated to you what to believe!!

Luke 24:13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Glad you brought up the above passage because, in Luke 24:19, it’s crystal clear, that his disciples only saw Jesus as ‘a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people’. So, if Jesus’ disciples (who literally live and walk with him) did not see Jesus as God, then from where did the Christians get this understanding that Jesus is God?? Certainly NOT from Jesus!

Christian scholars do not doubt Isa 53 is about Jesus if they believe the New Testament. Whether it also has a meaning with the nation of Israel being the servant is what would be debated.

Well, the NT contradicted Isaiah 53. For example, Isaiah 53:9 read “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth,” (Isaiah 53:9 KJV), but the NT said Jesus’ body was placed (not buried) in a tomb alone all by himself, NOT with the wicked and the rich! But I am sure, you will find ways to twist the NT or Isaiah 53 to ‘tailor-fit’ and ‘reconcile’ the obvious contradiction, right?

 

[JerryMyers]

Judas lost his apostleship because he arranged for the death of Jesus. No other Apostle wanted Jesus to die because they had learned what "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" means. Jesus tells people to go and learn it. It was not the desire of God for Jesus to die. The death of Jesus removes no sins. The Jews die in their sins because they believe blood sacrifice and money can remove their sins and that makes them Lost, not the people of God. God never wanted any animal or human sacrificed to please Him and sent John the Baptist to teach that truth. Belief in water baptism is to remove belief in blood sacrifice for sin removal. The flesh and blood that Jesus wants people to eat and drink is DOCTRINE, listen and understand WORDS of confession and repentance, sincere prayer to God is all that is required for sin removal with no death of any life
required with the act of washing away sins with water baptism. Then no further action other than keeping the vow to love one another, living a kind, righteous life treating all people as equals with compassion proving their love of God is required.
People that want Jesus dead on a cross believe Jesus is the Son of man. Jesus praised Peter for knowing Jesus is not the Son of man but is the Son of God. Anyone that proclaims Jesus is both the Son of man and the Son of God are denying Father and Son. God is not a man, Jesus is the son of no man.

So what is your understanding of ‘son of God’ when applied to Jesus?? Jesus himself understood the phrase ‘S/son of God’ as a reference to those who are righteous and led by the Spirit of God. He NEVER understood that phrase to mean he’s literally the son of God if that’s is what you are saying.

Royal bloodline only exists in the minds of people and is not granted by God. All people on Earth are equals and none are granted a throne of rule by God by blood/genetics. People can elect a ruler but to claim a throne only by genetics is not approved by the gospel of Jesus. Jesus in a court of law denied he wanted a throne, to be a king. People were trying to force that government upon his shoulders and Jesus rejected it. Jesus said OTHER people called him a King, he did not. Jesus desires separation of religion and government and Jesus wants to lead people into a righteous spirit based on truth from God so when people are elected to rule they will rule with love for the people as equals with none exalted above another because of wealth or position.

Agreed.

 

[Brian2]

But Abraham WAS the son of an idol maker. It’s just that you don’t know that.

That is not Jewish history.

 

[Brian2]

You mean you never heard the story of Abraham and his idol-worshipping/maker father from the Jewish Genesis Rabba 38:13 (the midrash) ?? That’s OK I can understand how empty vessels make the most noise.

Anyway, here’s a youtube video I found about that story -

Midrash are not history imo even if some of it might be historically true.
The Bible does tells us that Terah was an idol worshipper however. (Josh 24:2)

 

[Brian2]

If you read the footnote at the bottom of Daniel 7 passage ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel 7&version=NIV ) you will find the phrase ‘son of man’ is a reference to a human being and if Daniel 7 was talking about Jesus, then Daniel 7 did not see Jesus as God but a human being.

Because Jesus is not said to be God in Daniel 7, that does not mean that He is not God.
Daniel 7 was talking about Jesus, the one who is given an everlasting Kingdom to rule over forever. This happens when Jesus returns to heaven after His resurrection. He rose as a man but His body was different because He was glorified and His body was immortal and incorruptible. That would be why it says in Dan 7 that He is one "like" a son of man.
So Jesus is still a man as He was on earth and while on earth He was also the Son of God and is still the Son of God now.
While on earth He lived as a man and not as a superman, and relied on His Father for all He did and said etc.
When He went BACK to heaven, to have the glory with His Father that He had before He came to earth, He filled the whole universe and was given all power and authority in heaven and on earth. He was given all that He owned even while on earth, He inherited those things from His Father but they have always belonged to Him.

 

[Brian2]

Another nonsense! Jesus never asked anyone to do to his will, but to do to the will of the Father who sent him and to whom he himself worship.

Of course, same thing. But Jesus is our Lord and we obey Him.

If by that you mean Jesus died for your sin, then, you are dead wrong, UNLESS you can show me where in the whole Bible did Jesus said he came to die for your sin, else, you are just talking NONSENSE!

Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Of course, I can!

Jesus denied he was dead when he said, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” - Luke 24:39

Can anyone who did not die become a ghost?? By saying he’s NOT a ghost, Jesus is saying he was not killed/dead as people have thought and believed.

Interestingly too, Luke 24:39 also debunked the Christians’ perception that Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks when he showed his hands to his disciples and asked them to touch him – nope, he showed his hands and asked them to touch him to prove to them he did NOT die. So, don’t listen to the words of other people, listen to the words of Jesus!

If Jesus is CLEARLY saying he’s not dead in Luke 24:39 then, how can he rise from the dead when, by Jesus' own admission, he’s not dead in the first place !!!??

You are forgetting that before Luke 24:39 we are told the story of Jesus being killed on the cross, so how can you say he's not dead "in the first place". When He was dying He said. "Father into you hands I commit my spirit" and then He breathed His last.
Before He died He told His disciples a number of times that He was going to be delivered into the hands of the Jews and be killed and resurrected.
You make a big deal about believing what Jesus said and that you won't believe men, but when it comes to the crunch you do not believe what Jesus said. (Luke 9:22)
Are you a Muslim, or maybe a blind man who has an atheist read the Bible to him?

Glad you brought up the above passage because, in Luke 24:19, it’s crystal clear, that his disciples only saw Jesus as ‘a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people’. So, if Jesus’ disciples (who literally live and walk with him) did not see Jesus as God, then from where did the Christians get this understanding that Jesus is God?? Certainly NOT from Jesus!

So you cannot answer Luke 24:19 and try to change the subject.
Those disciples saying that to a stranger does not show what Jesus had been teaching them about Himself.
Thomas, when He believed Jesus had risen from the dead, called Jesus his Lord and his God.
Even that does not mean that the disciples would go out at Pentecost and proclaim that Jesus is their Lord and God. That would have been a recipe for disaster in that Jewish setting.

Well, the NT contradicted Isaiah 53. For example, Isaiah 53:9 read “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth,” (Isaiah 53:9 KJV), but the NT said Jesus’ body was placed (not buried) in a tomb alone all by himself, NOT with the wicked and the rich! But I am sure, you will find ways to twist the NT or Isaiah 53 to ‘tailor-fit’ and ‘reconcile’ the obvious contradiction, right?

A tomb is a grave.
Jesus died as a criminal and no doubt had a criminal's grave awaiting Him.
But as you know a couple of rich dudes came along and obtained the body and but it in a rich man's grave.
No twisting anything there.
The NIV translation is slightly different and makes it clearer imo. Jesus body does not have to be cut in half or buried twice in 2 different graves and I don't have to say that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both rich and wicked. Jesus was just assigned 2 graves. Lucky Him.
Isa 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

 

[Brian2]

So what is your understanding of ‘son of God’ when applied to Jesus?? Jesus himself understood the phrase ‘S/son of God’ as a reference to those who are righteous and led by the Spirit of God. He NEVER understood that phrase to mean he’s literally the son of God if that’s is what you are saying.

But Jesus knew that Joseph was not His real father and that God was His Father.
At 12 years old He told His parents, when He was in the temple, that He must be in His Father's house, doing His Father's work.

 

[Triumph]

Daniel's vision is of a fighter pilot and the clouds are on the wings of the Jet as it breaks the sound barrier. There are photos online where you can see that. The Ancient of days is nuclear fusion as our sun that creates days is made of nuclear fusion and it goes back to the first "day" that the planet Earth experienced. Nuclear Fusion is Ancient the source of suns. The nuclear missile is given power by the hand of the pilot to destroy and the Radiation that results from the use of it will rule Earth forever. Hundreds of nuclear power plants in meltdown because of battle are the self sustaining fire of Hell that no human on Earth survives. Be removed from this planet by Jesus or die on this planet because of a merciless thermonuclear world war where friends end up killing friends and brothers end up killing brothers.

Jerry, we are to learn what is right and what is not because Jesus said WOE to Jewish scribes. The Old testament is full of lies that scribes were forced to write by their Lord= human king. The reason Jesus said that, is Jewish religion is based on lies. The prophets were given visions from God and they do show us what happens on Earth in the End of Days but the Jewish king= Lord stories are vile and full of unholy acts by lost men that call themselves Born holy. Jesus said learn from the prophets as they do tell truth. The problem is understanding the prophecy about the last war on Earth, WW3, because it is written in symbolism.
After the WW3 cease fire, the survivors will be kicked back to the stone age until nuclear winter sets in and that is the end. People should stop believing fairy tales and look at the reality we face.
GOD said plants and animals were created before man was created. THAT is truth. But the Jewish fiction of creation lies saying man was created before plants and animals. The Devil that the LOST follow, opposes God throughout the Bible and the people that hear the words of Jesus completely understand that.
The Bible is about God and the Devil and how the Devil by calling himself the chosen of God, the LORD of the OT creating his own religion, genders enough believers that divide their belief in Abraham's sons to destroy our specie in a world nuclear war, Apocalypse made by man. the 666 Beast is man that kills man, WAR itself and the last one is not survivable , it is an End of Days. The son of God is not a killer so if people think he is coming to kill for them do not know the only one that can save them.

Adam was the first JEWISH man, the creation of a race of people, that wanted to enslave people using man made human killing laws they said were from God but were not. They kept trying to stone Jesus to death because he would not serve their laws or support their beliefs.
Adam is not the first human man God created. Jews are Lost, not the people of God. Jesus said those that want to kill him are not the people of God in John chapter 8. That is very clear.
Paul the Pharisee is not accepted by God because he refused to leave the Jewish laws Jesus rejected including human killing sacrifices thus Paul lies calling himself an Apostle. .
Jesus upholds the merciful laws of God not the Mosaic laws that states humans are to be enslaved by the Jews. God never granted the right for a man to own a slave but the LOST Jews said He did. WOE to those scribes.

Jesus said learn he desires mercy and not to be sacrificed. No true Apostle or disciple wanted Jesus on that cross because they had learned God does not accept human sacrifices or animal sacrifices.
Jesus was forced on that cross to stop the Jews from continuing to kill his disciples. Jews thought with Jesus dead, his religion would die with him and the Jewish religion would grow.

 

[Triumph]

Of course, same thing. But Jesus is our Lord and we obey Him.



Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.



You are forgetting that before Luke 24:39 we are told the story of Jesus being killed on the cross, so how can you say he's not dead "in the first place". When He was dying He said. "Father into you hands I commit my spirit" and then He breathed His last.
Before He died He told His disciples a number of times that He was going to be delivered into the hands of the Jews and be killed and resurrected.
You make a big deal about believing what Jesus said and that you won't believe men, but when it comes to the crunch you do not believe what Jesus said. (Luke 9:22)
Are you a Muslim, or maybe a blind man who has an atheist read the Bible to him?



So you cannot answer Luke 24:19 and try to change the subject.
Those disciples saying that to a stranger does not show what Jesus had been teaching them about Himself.
Thomas, when He believed Jesus had risen from the dead, called Jesus his Lord and his God.
Even that does not mean that the disciples would go out at Pentecost and proclaim that Jesus is their Lord and God. That would have been a recipe for disaster in that Jewish setting.



A tomb is a grave.
Jesus died as a criminal and no doubt had a criminal's grave awaiting Him.
But as you know a couple of rich dudes came along and obtained the body and but it in a rich man's grave.
No twisting anything there.
The NIV translation is slightly different and makes it clearer imo. Jesus body does not have to be cut in half or buried twice in 2 different graves and I don't have to say that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both rich and wicked. Jesus was just assigned 2 graves. Lucky Him.
Isa 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

NOT correct about Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. They were rich respected Hebrews and they had high respect towards anyone that they thought had royal blood from King David.
The burial of Jesus was in honor of David not Jesus. They did see Jesus was a prophet and blessed by God man but they believed the powers of Jesus was the result of Jesus being the blood of David. Nicodemus actually liked Jesus and considered converting by baptism but his disbelief because of his traditions kept him from following Jesus. The brave followed Jesus because Jews would kill people for leaving their religion. Nicodemus would visit Jesus in in the night so no one would see him associating with a man the Jews were threatening to kill.
Note Joseph, the Father of Jesus was still alive when Jesus died because if he had died before then it would have been recorded in the New Testament. Joseph never left his Jewish religion and since all Jews agreed with their High Priest, Joseph agreed Jesus should hang on that cross for not giving honor to Abraham and David, his bloodline and beliefs that gave Joseph respect in Jewish society. Jesus was not given respect under his own roof except by his mother and brothers. It is the fathers responsibility to bury his son but Joseph rejected Jesus and wanted him to have a criminals grave so Joseph's status would not be changed in the high seats in the temple honoring David.

 

[Triumph]

So why do you insist he is the son of God as like God the Son??


Interesting. Again, care to share your source of information so that I can understand your resentment towards Abraham?

My source is the Bible I quoted. In John chapter 8 Jesus called Abraham the father of the lie and called his sons vipers. Jesus specifically used Abrahams name. Abraham's sons were DOING the works of their father Abraham that was a lying tyrant, killer of innocent people, threatening war if Abraham is not served.
In Judges chapter 9, Abraham is shown threatening death to kill people that would not serve him proved in the story about Abimelech. Abimelech like Jesus did no sin against God yet Abraham lied saying he did. Abraham enslaved people he would kill if they did not obey him. Abraham was a SLAVER and a KILLER, Thief, Liar and Deceiver. The command of God is do not kill and love one another and do not steal. Abraham lies when he said God blessed him because Jesus said Abraham never heard the voice of God.

I do not believe in God the Son. God is not Jesus. God did create Jesus lower than God by not giving him all knowledge or all power. Jesus must pray to God for advice. Jesus was told what will happen in the future making him a prophet of God but not all details of what will happen like exact days that only God knows. Jesus is not allowed to command Angels of God because they only obey God. God supports Jesus so probably would give Jesus those Angels but not by the command of Jesus but by the Command of God. Jesus would have to pray to God for that powerful assistance. Angels love Jesus but they only obey God. Jesus is never equal to God and never said he was but the Jews accused Jesus of trying to be God, be equal to God and Jesus denied it. But they still accused him of it and killed him as a blasphemer denying the God given right of freedom of speech Jesus needed to teach the Words of God. Freedom of Speech is the Holy Grail, "Cup" that holds truth that Jesus wants passed to his disciples so they can find salvation.

God created all life, Jesus did not. God gives Jesus a job to do, to teach the words of God and because Jesus is faithful in that mission, God gives amazing power to Jesus of healing and prophecy not given to anyone except through believing the words Jesus heard from God.

 

[Brian2]

NOT correct about Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. They were rich respected Hebrews and they had high respect towards anyone that they thought had royal blood from King David.
The burial of Jesus was in honor of David not Jesus. They did see Jesus was a prophet and blessed by God man but they believed the powers of Jesus was the result of Jesus being the blood of David. Nicodemus actually liked Jesus and considered converting by baptism but his disbelief because of his traditions kept him from following Jesus. The brave followed Jesus because Jews would kill people for leaving their religion. Nicodemus would visit Jesus in in the night so no one would see him associating with a man the Jews were threatening to kill.
Note Joseph, the Father of Jesus was still alive when Jesus died because if he had died before then it would have been recorded in the New Testament. Joseph never left his Jewish religion and since all Jews agreed with their High Priest, Joseph agreed Jesus should hang on that cross for not giving honor to Abraham and David, his bloodline and beliefs that gave Joseph respect in Jewish society. Jesus was not given respect under his own roof except by his mother and brothers. It is the fathers responsibility to bury his son but Joseph rejected Jesus and wanted him to have a criminals grave so Joseph's status would not be changed in the high seats in the temple honoring David.

Much of what you have said is contradicted by or is not in the Bible.
Where do you get your beliefs? Is it from a prophet or teacher or have you just made it up all by yourself, or with the help of God or........?

 

[Triumph]

Much of what you have said is contradicted by or is not in the Bible.
Where do you get your beliefs? Is it from a prophet or teacher or have you just made it up all by yourself, or with the help of God or........?

Read the Bible and realize who the people are and research what their position is then listen to what Jesus said. Use common sense. Jesus is a prophet.
Luke 24:19
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:"
Jesus also said,
Matthew 13:57
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." Jesus told people he is not given honour in his own house. His mother loved him and was at his crucifixion grieving. His brothers were followers of Jesus so that left Joseph, an exalted son of David, that was not at his crucifixion giving Jesus no love or honour to be the person Jesus spoke about in Matthew. Jesus denied that the Christ was of Abraham thus not of David either in John 8.
Jesus is Christ but Christ is not a son of David or Abraham, there is no Abrahamic covenant if as Jesus said, Abraham did not hear the voice of God, Jesus hears the voice of God. Jesus was called a liar for saying Abraham is a liar. I believe Jesus is telling the truth and Abraham is a proven by scripture Liar, the father of the lie he is chosen of God. One of Abraham's lies he told the public, he was not a married man when he was a married man. That is not just lying, that is disrespecting his vow to God of marriage to Sarah as Abraham is proving he has no love of God or his wife.

 

[Brian2]

Read the Bible and realize who the people are and research what their position is then listen to what Jesus said. Use common sense. Jesus is a prophet.
Luke 24:19
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:"

Yes Jesus was a prophet. That does not mean He was not also the Christ and the King of the Jews and the priest who offered Himself in sacrifice.

Jesus also said,
Matthew 13:57
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." Jesus told people he is not given honour in his own house. His mother loved him and was at his crucifixion grieving. His brothers were followers of Jesus so that left Joseph, an exalted son of David, that was not at his crucifixion giving Jesus no love or honour to be the person Jesus spoke about in Matthew.

Since Joseph is not mentioned, you are making up stuff about him.

Jesus denied that the Christ was of Abraham thus not of David either in John 8.

I don't see that. How does He do that?

Jesus is Christ but Christ is not a son of David or Abraham, there is no Abrahamic covenant if as Jesus said, Abraham did not hear the voice of God, Jesus hears the voice of God. Jesus was called a liar for saying Abraham is a liar. I believe Jesus is telling the truth and Abraham is a proven by scripture Liar, the father of the lie he is chosen of God. One of Abraham's lies he told the public, he was not a married man when he was a married man. That is not just lying, that is disrespecting his vow to God of marriage to Sarah as Abraham is proving he has no love of God or his wife.

Where does Jesus say that Abraham did not hear the voice of God?
Where did Jesus say Abraham is a liar?
Abraham did not say that he was not married, he said that Sarah was his sister, and I think she was. But if Abraham did lie, that just shows that Abraham was human.
Have you lied? Does that show you have no love for God?

 

[JerryMyers]

My source is the Bible I quoted. In John chapter 8 Jesus called Abraham the father of the lie and called his sons vipers. Jesus specifically used Abrahams name. Abraham's sons were DOING the works of their father Abraham that was a lying tyrant, killer of innocent people, threatening war if Abraham is not served.
In Judges chapter 9, Abraham is shown threatening death to kill people that would not serve him proved in the story about Abimelech. Abimelech like Jesus did no sin against God yet Abraham lied saying he did. Abraham enslaved people he would kill if they did not obey him. Abraham was a SLAVER and a KILLER, Thief, Liar and Deceiver. The command of God is do not kill and love one another and do not steal. Abraham lies when he said God blessed him because Jesus said Abraham never heard the voice of God.

I do not believe in God the Son. God is not Jesus. God did create Jesus lower than God by not giving him all knowledge or all power. Jesus must pray to God for advice. Jesus was told what will happen in the future making him a prophet of God but not all details of what will happen like exact days that only God knows. Jesus is not allowed to command Angels of God because they only obey God. God supports Jesus so probably would give Jesus those Angels but not by the command of Jesus but by the Command of God. Jesus would have to pray to God for that powerful assistance. Angels love Jesus but they only obey God. Jesus is never equal to God and never said he was but the Jews accused Jesus of trying to be God, be equal to God and Jesus denied it. But they still accused him of it and killed him as a blasphemer denying the God given right of freedom of speech Jesus needed to teach the Words of God. Freedom of Speech is the Holy Grail, "Cup" that holds truth that Jesus wants passed to his disciples so they can find salvation.

God created all life, Jesus did not. God gives Jesus a job to do, to teach the words of God and because Jesus is faithful in that mission, God gives amazing power to Jesus of healing and prophecy not given to anyone except through believing the words Jesus heard from God.

I think you may have misunderstood Jesus’ words in John 8. If you read from John 8:34 to John 8:47, you can see clearly that Jesus was NOT referring to Abraham as the ‘father of lies’, he was referring to the devil as the ‘father of lies’. In context, when the Jews refused to listen to Jesus, a man who speaks the truth but rather they prefer to listen to lies, Jesus equates the devil as their father because the devil is the father of lies.

 

[lukethethird]

To Die For The Sin of Mankind – what does that really mean ?

It means we no longer have to cleanse ourselves and the village by pinning our sins onto a goat, (scapegoat), and driving it out into the desert.

 

[JerryMyers]

Midrash are not history imo even if some of it might be historically true.
The Bible does tells us that Terah was an idol worshipper however. (Josh 24:2)

Midrash is part of Jewish history – it’s the way they interpreted the scripture.

If Terah was an idol worshipper, it would be no surprise that he would also make them. Idols are made by the hands of man, just like crosses, statues of Jesus, Mary, mosques, churches, and so on.