To Christians - The Pope says there's no hell, what do you think?

[Muffled]

Take what you "believe", add $6.00, and you can get yourself a cup of coffee


On 27 February 380, together with Gratian and Valentinian II, Theodosius issued the decree "Cunctos populos", the so-called "Edict of Thessalonica", recorded in the Codex Theodosianus xvi.1.2. This declared the Nicene Trinitarian Christianity to be the only legitimate Imperial religion and the only one entitled to call itself Catholic. Other Christians he described as "foolish madmen".[14] He also ended official state support for the traditional Polytheism religions and customs.[15]

On 26 November 380, two days after he had arrived in Constantinople, Theodosius expelled the non-Nicene bishop, Demophilus of Constantinople, and appointed Meletius patriarch of Antioch, and Gregory of Nazianzus, one of the Cappadocian Fathers from Antioch (today in Turkey), patriarch of Constantinople. Theodosius had just been baptized, by bishop Acholius of Thessalonica, during a severe illness, as was common in the early Christian world.[citation needed] Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe I can get a good cup of coffee for a buck at Cumberland Farms.

I believe that is new information for me but it doesn't surprise me any. The whole idea of holding the council was to determine orthodoxy.

I believe this is what I see as bogus: As he was a part of the head of the beast of Revelation 13, whose authority came from the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13:4), then you can determine for yourself how much that is worth.

 

[Muffled]

Where did it state that this lake of fire is Hell?

I believe it does not. However our word Hell is derived from Norse myth about Hel who was the person dwelling in that place of fire and that place carried his/her name as well. In Norse myth it was the grave of the wicked.

 

[metis]

I believe there is no such thing as an apostolic church. That is only a RC fable.

Is that Biblical homework or RC myth homework?

Try these from non-Catholic sources: Christianity - Wikipedia [scroll down to 3.1]

and...

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia

We know what the history is on this because it's well recorded, and the beginning of that process shows up in Acts and some of the epistles.

And just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that chose the canon of your Bible during the latter part of the 4th century. See: Biblical canon - Wikipedia [scroll down to 2]

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I believe it does not. However our word Hell is derived from Norse myth about Hel who was the person dwelling in that place of fire and that place carried his/her name as well. In Norse myth it was the grave of the wicked.

In Norse myth it was where everyone except those who went to Valhalla ended up. It was neither good nor bad (neither was Valhalla). Adding wickedness to hell didn't come until more Hades like stories.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Did Pope Francis say there is no hell? Not quite, the Vatican insists

Revelation speaks of a lake of fire, where 'the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of the ages"

 

[Deidre]

Revelation speaks of a lake of fire, where 'the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of the ages"

Do you think this is a metaphor of sorts?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Thank you, I'm glad you liked it! (It's nothing I came up with on my own....I was taught this by Jehovah's Witnesses.)

Your last question, "are they metaphors", puts you on the right track! The first Scripture you mentioned, Revelation 20:14, says "death (was) hurled into the Lake of Fire."
Can death be 'burned'?

No, but the Bible promises that death (due to sin - Romans 5:12) will be gone forever. [Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26; and my favorite, Revelation 21:3-4. It's my favorite because it says "the tent of God is with mankind...and death will be no more."; it's like the fulfillment to the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-10, the Our Father), where we pray, "Thy will (i.e., purpose) be done on Earth."]

Sorry, got carried away. Back to fire: it's just symbolic of complete destruction...whatever is hurled in, will be gone forever! And isn't that what literal fire does? I mean, if you put something in fire, you ain't getting it back!

I hope I made sense. It's late here, and I'm tired.
But torment is different, too. Something to think about... Remember the three Hebrews in the book of Daniel? Thrown into the fire (literal fire, this time), but what saved them? An angel! Was the angel hurt from the fire? Why would we expect Satan to experience pain from fire?

The Bible is awesome, when you can tie Scriptures together!

More on torment, tomorrow? Ok?

Goodnight.

If you think Satan can't experience pain, then how would he be tormented forever?

If you think the lake of fire just totally destroys everyone, then how is the false prophet tormented forever?

There is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Why would God raise the unjust from death, to judge them, and then just cast them into a lake of fire only to just die again?
People want to believe there isn't a hell, because it comforts them to believe that.

Why did the Messiah say, how can you escape the damnation of hell, if all he is talking about is the grave? Matthew 23:33

If you just die and are gone, how is that everlasting punishment? Matthew 25:46

Why did he say not to fear those that can kill the body and after that can do no more, but to fear him that after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell?
(If it is as you say, it would just be death either way, what would be the difference?)

Why will there be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Why the parable about Lazarus and Abraham, and being tormented in the flame?

Why did he say where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched?

Don't let the pope or anyone else deceive you, there is a heaven, and there is a hell.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

As Peter is the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17, who doesn't feed the sheep, but "leaves the flock" (Acts 15:7), and Acts was written by some unknown author, possibly Luke, an associate of the false prophet Paul, your reference has little merit. As for your non apostolic mother Roman church, instituted by the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, and officially dedicated as the official Roman church by another Roman Emperor, Theodosius, they baptize infants, who apparently do not "repent" or receive the Holy Spirit, as they apparently require confirmation, and they are baptized in the "name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost".

7 year olds are generally children of God and do not need baptism nor the need of some confirmation. It is the "lost" adults, who are "hanging" on to the pope, who live in "hell" on earth, who need the "repentance".

So just what books of the NT are acceptable to you?

Sounds like you reject all of Peter and Paul's writings, and the book of Acts. What about Matthew, since it said the Messiah gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, does that mean Matthew is out for you also?

If you don't even believe Acts, why did you reference it? Also just curious, why did you mention that particular verse to begin with? I don't understand what you were trying to prove.

 

[kjw47]

What a great post, and thank you for sharing this. But, how about passages like this? What to make of these:

Revelation 20:14 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:10 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:20 20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.


Are they merely metaphors for something else?

Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering-untruth. His scales are perfectly balanced( an eye for an eye) uncorruptable. Lets apply those scales to that teaching. All of Gods ways are justice-Deut 32:4)
On one side--70-100 years of life of unrepented sin------ On the other side-- Trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of punishment---See any balance? No-- thus a false teaching by those who don't even know God--Jesus warned most wouldn't-John 15:20-21)-- such a simple reality.
Even Jesus taught--those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If you think Satan can't experience pain, then how would he be tormented forever?

If you think the lake of fire just totally destroys everyone, then how is the false prophet tormented forever?

There is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Why would God raise the unjust from death, to judge them, and then just cast them into a lake of fire only to just die again?
People want to believe there isn't a hell, because it comforts them to believe that.

Why did the Messiah say, how can you escape the damnation of hell, if all he is talking about is the grave? Matthew 23:33

If you just die and are gone, how is that everlasting punishment? Matthew 25:46

Why did he say not to fear those that can kill the body and after that can do no more, but to fear him that after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell?
(If it is as you say, it would just be death either way, what would be the difference?)

Why will there be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Why the parable about Lazarus and Abraham, and being tormented in the flame?

Why did he say where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched?

Don't let the pope or anyone else deceive you, there is a heaven, and there is a hell.

Hello, hope you are doing well. You bring up some thought-provoking questions!

Remember, death will be thrown in the Lake of Fire (LoF). Can you burn / torment death?

Regarding our English word “torment” in the Bible, it is rendered from the Greek word “ba·sa·niʹzo”.

The Greek noun ba·sa·ni·stesʹ occurring at Matthew 18:34 is translated “jailers” in some versions (AT, Fn, NW; see Matthew 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB).

Regarding this usage, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999)

I’ll continue this further, but right now I have to go.

Something quick...the Greek word for hell is Hades. If you look up all those passages where Jesus was referencing fire, like at Mark 9:44 or Matthew 5:22, the Greek Word is not Hades; it is Ge’enna, Gehenna.That was the Valley of Hinnom, Jerusalem’s garbage dump.

More later.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering-untruth. His scales are perfectly balanced( an eye for an eye) uncorruptable. Lets apply those scales to that teaching. All of Gods ways are justice-Deut 32:4)
On one side--70-100 years of life of unrepented sin------ On the other side-- Trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of punishment---See any balance? No-- thus a false teaching by those who don't even know God--Jesus warned most wouldn't-John 15:20-21)-- such a simple reality.
Even Jesus taught--those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction.

Yes, the “path to destruction”...not eternal torment. Very good post!

 

[Deidre]

Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering-untruth. His scales are perfectly balanced( an eye for an eye) uncorruptable. Lets apply those scales to that teaching. All of Gods ways are justice-Deut 32:4)
On one side--70-100 years of life of unrepented sin------ On the other side-- Trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of punishment---See any balance? No-- thus a false teaching by those who don't even know God--Jesus warned most wouldn't-John 15:20-21)-- such a simple reality.
Even Jesus taught--those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction.

What do you believe in this?

 

[kjw47]

What do you believe in this?

I believe God is love and my post is reality. God is not a sadist. He has warned all well in advance. There is 0 room for sin in Gods creation in Gods view. The world needs to step back and relook.

 

[Muffled]

Try these from non-Catholic sources: Christianity - Wikipedia [scroll down to 3.1]

and...

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia

We know what the history is on this because it's well recorded, and the beginning of that process shows up in Acts and some of the epistles.

And just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that chose the canon of your Bible during the latter part of the 4th century. See: Biblical canon - Wikipedia [scroll down to 2]

I believe my Bible is a protestant Bible and the Canon selected by protestants.

I believe it is a little far fetched to say there is a succession. No doubt believers derived from the preaching of the gospel by the apostles and I suppose that would include Paul. Paul did set up leaders in the churches he started but that was in Asia. Otherwise I know of no Biblical account of an apostle setting up leaders.

 

[metis]

I believe my Bible is a protestant Bible and the Canon selected by protestants.

Which ended up being the same exact books used by the Catholics minus the Apocrypha, although in Luther's first Bible he put them there between the testaments. Luther had thought about dropping two of the other books but decided not to.

I believe it is a little far fetched to say there is a succession. No doubt believers derived from the preaching of the gospel by the apostles and I suppose that would include Paul. Paul did set up leaders in the churches he started but that was in Asia. Otherwise I know of no Biblical account of an apostle setting up leaders.

It's right there in black & white in Acts and some of the epistles as you see the Twelve appointing others. The feeling that I'm getting is that you did not actually read my link on "apostolic succession" because it covers it there.

Also, you might check out these verses as well: Eph.5:25-26; 1 Tim.3:15; Mt.16:18; Heb.13:17; Mat.18:17-18; 1 Cor.5:5, and I Tim.1:20. The thing to note is that the Church deemed itself as being the authority, which is very important since if there had not been appointees, the church would have mostly likely disappeared because there was no authority to refer to, plus there were all sorts of "books" in circulation covering many things to would go against what's found in the Bible.

 

[Muffled]

In Norse myth it was where everyone except those who went to Valhalla ended up. It was neither good nor bad (neither was Valhalla). Adding wickedness to hell didn't come until more Hades like stories.

I believe it is possible that the book I read on Norse Myth may have taken liberties with the text although the main writer supposedly was a Christian and could have changed things to suit his knowledge of Hades.

I believe Hades is alternately used for the grave and the fiery place (Hell) in the Greek NT butagain that is because that was the understaanding of a word for it in the Greek language.

 

[Muffled]

Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering-untruth. His scales are perfectly balanced( an eye for an eye) uncorruptable. Lets apply those scales to that teaching. All of Gods ways are justice-Deut 32:4)
On one side--70-100 years of life of unrepented sin------ On the other side-- Trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of punishment---See any balance? No-- thus a false teaching by those who don't even know God--Jesus warned most wouldn't-John 15:20-21)-- such a simple reality.
Even Jesus taught--those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction.

I believe it is quite possible that one sin is worth Trillions of years of punishment. I believe most people do not view their sin that seriously but that does not mean that God sees it that way. I believe the suffering on the cross gives some indication of how seriously God considers sin.

However I do believe that an eternity in Hell simply means there is no time. There is no sun or stars to determine time, only fire which has no regularity to it.

 

[kjw47]

I believe it is quite possible that one sin is worth Trillions of years of punishment. I believe most people do not view their sin that seriously but that does not mean that God sees it that way. I believe the suffering on the cross gives some indication of how seriously God considers sin.

However I do believe that an eternity in Hell simply means there is no time. There is no sun or stars to determine time, only fire which has no regularity to it.

God showed all what true Justice= an eye for an eye. It didn't mean literal. It meant justice will occur. A settlement agreement would be ok if both parties agree.
Perfect balance on Gods justice scales. Eternal suffering is symbolic.
Jesus said those who walk the broad and spacious path to DESTRUCTION.

 

[Muffled]

God showed all what true Justice= an eye for an eye. It didn't mean literal. It meant justice will occur. A settlement agreement would be ok if both parties agree.
Perfect balance on Gods justice scales. Eternal suffering is symbolic.
Jesus said those who walk the broad and spacious path to DESTRUCTION.

I believe the cycle of evil equals the cycle of Hell so the scales are balanced.

 

[Dantedeven]

It doesn't convince me people. Because i know the book of revelations and the book of revelations was the gospel of John. And this book is what is called an Apocalypse. Now in the Holy Bible, there are three types of books: History, Lessons and Apocalypse. But all of the books in the bible are revelations. And all of them shall remain prophecies for unless specified, they are not bound to time. Apocalypse are books about the end of this earth. And in my opinion: the canon bible, orthodox as well as the heterodox apocryphs and the deuterocanonical books are all riddles with esoteric knowledge. Which is fine by me, but it is thanks to the church.


Revelation 20:14 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
- This verse refers one entity. Hades. And the state of death being thron into the lake of fire can mean either cremation, or ressurection.
Revelation 20:10 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 19:20 20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
- These verses both refers two entities, the devil. Whom God has granted freedom till judgment day. And the false prophet, who is the physical enbodiment of satan on earth. This verse refers to the victory of Christ over the devil, and Lucifer gets convicted, at last.

In my personal view; Hell is not believing in God, Hell is being influenced in this mortal life by the devils light. Hell is the passion or desire that burns. Hell is suffering at the hands of evil without knowing the source. Hell is not being allowed in heaven. Hell is also the end of earth. But Hell was also the beginning of earth. For Hell was on earth, in the very beginning. And Hell is on earth, in this very life. And Hell shall be on earth, in the very end. But to Dante Alighieri's Hell, i now think that none shall go. Until it is revealed to me otherwise. No, i now believe that the Hell to where a sinner goes, is called Sheol.