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To Anberlin Finch from MA ...

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Sola Fide, May 12, 2004.

  1. Sola Fide

    Sola Fide New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
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    Ratings:
    +0
    Finch –

    It’s been awhile I know since I last posted and said that I’d be over here --- I’ve been over talking baseball for quite a while over at TopMLB. I apologize for that. I actually saved your entire last response to me from the PI forum and want to comment on several of the things you brought up:

    I want to start with your last comment first --- here’s a theological point that I hold that I’m not sure how many orthodox Christians do. That is, I regard Christians and Jews as brothers and worshippers of the SAME God (although Jews don’t recognize Christ as Messiah in the here and now). I believe based on Paul’s writings (Romans 11:25) that Jews in the here and now have experienced a hardening by God to the truth of Christ until the full number of Gentiles are saved. Thus, I would call this the time of the Gentiles --- but the greater nation of Israel itself WILL in the future come to accept Jesus as Lord in God’s timing.

    On to some of your other points --- I don’t believe for a second in things such as: Relative Truth or Reincarnation. It sounds very much to me as though you’ve wrestled with Christ and His claims A LOT!! Interesting that you chose to reject them --- for me the evidence is simply too overwhelming.

    As far as I’m concerned I think you’re under the mistaken notion that I believe simply because I’ve been TOLD these things without question. NOT TRUE. When I was 20 I went back and scrapped everything I was ever taught and started over. What I have come to accept as truth is based upon years of diligent scholarship, soul wrestling, and personal life transforming experiences with the life transforming power of what Rudolf Otto termed “Das Heiliga (German Spelling?” – The Holy. Life is NOT pointless and NOT meaningless. You and everyone else in the entire world are uniquely created by God for a purpose.

    It appears as though your primary rejections of Christianity and Christ’s claims come from some basic tenets/premises about God:

    1) Jesus CANNOT be God because this would violate His Word when He says that there is no God but Yahweh. This premise presupposes God’s nature as SINGULAR. But … What if God’s nature weren’t singular however, but rather TRIUNE much in the same manner as human beings are body, soul, and spirit. (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

    2) Jesus CANNOT be Messiah because He doesn’t fit the traditional mold. However, I’ve often found that God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55). He often seems to use that which is weak, despised, and rejected by humanity for His glory. And that’s so fitting!!! After all --- if God used human strength and human glory, it could be said that was by humanity’s strength and salvation --- not by God’s --- that salvation comes.

    Messiah has traditionally been a highly politically charged term for Jews. It evokes thoughts of the glory of the height of the Davidic Kingdom. It’s no wonder to me why many Jews have never been able to accept Jesus as messiah.

    Christians say that this concept of messiah is TOO SMALL in God’s vision of things. Christians say that God’s view of messiah is as savior from sin and death – the doorway and focal point of all history – NOT merely an earthly political leader. That’s the difference in the terms.

    3) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because God despises human sacrifice. It is clear from Hebrew (OT) scripture how God feels about human sacrifice and frankly Christians hold to the same ethic (see Ps. 106:38).. But to me this argument is based upon a misunderstanding of the meaning of Jesus’ atonement.

    Is it such a stretch to consider that what God was actually doing by instituting the Jewish animal sacrificial system was painting a picture for humanity and foreshadowing what would be the 1 sacrifice for ALL time for ALL sin throughout time?

    As far as some of the names you mentioned there in connection with Christianity, it sounds to me as if you’ve got some misconceptions regarding Christianity itself. Undoubtedly I have some regarding Judaism myself, so would welcome correction in that arena. Far be it for me to judge anyone’s salvation. That’s simply NOT my place to do – I’m not God.

    When considering the entire salvation question there is a word picture that I'd like to try to paint. Imagine 2 circles that overlap one another slightly. One is labeled "Inside the Church" the other is labeled "Outside the Church". Now ... focus only on the area where the 2 circles overlap. This is the identified TRUE people of God --- those who are following his will. Notice that this area is made up of both circles. Again, I am NOT the ultimate judge here on who these Saved people are. I'm NOT God.

    That being said, I’ll comment on just a couple of names that stood out to me:

    Benny Hinn --- a highly controversial figure amongst Christians. There are many (including this writer) that feel that he simply plays on emotionalism and aren’t thrilled with his ministry.

    Joseph Smith – Whatever anyone ever tells you the contrary believe me on this point: Mormonism is NOT Christianity. They are very very different. Perhaps the best resource I can give you if you truly want to understand the severest criticisms about Mormonism is in Kingdom of the Cults Excellent scholarship!!! There is an entire chapter devoted to Mormonism which I highly recommend. The evidence is simply overwhelming that it is merely a man-invented faith. It’s basically an open and shut case.

    Sola Fide (MA)
     
  2. Sola Fide

    Sola Fide New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Finch –

    It’s been awhile I know since I last posted and said that I’d be over here --- I’ve been over talking baseball for quite a while over at TopMLB. I apologize for that. I actually saved your entire last response to me from the PI forum and want to comment on several of the things you brought up:

    I want to start with your last comment first --- here’s a theological point that I hold that I’m not sure how many orthodox Christians do. That is, I regard Christians and Jews as brothers and worshippers of the SAME God (although Jews don’t recognize Christ as Messiah in the here and now). I believe based on Paul’s writings (Romans 11:25) that Jews in the here and now have experienced a hardening by God to the truth of Christ until the full number of Gentiles are saved. Thus, I would call this the time of the Gentiles --- but the greater nation of Israel itself WILL in the future come to accept Jesus as Lord in God’s timing.

    On to some of your other points --- I don’t believe for a second in things such as: Relative Truth or Reincarnation. It sounds very much to me as though you’ve wrestled with Christ and His claims A LOT!! Interesting that you chose to reject them --- for me the evidence is simply too overwhelming.

    As far as I’m concerned I think you’re under the mistaken notion that I believe simply because I’ve been TOLD these things without question. NOT TRUE. When I was 20 I went back and scrapped everything I was ever taught and started over. What I have come to accept as truth is based upon years of diligent scholarship, soul wrestling, and personal life transforming experiences with the life transforming power of what Rudolf Otto termed “Das Heiliga (German Spelling?” – The Holy. Life is NOT pointless and NOT meaningless. You and everyone else in the entire world are uniquely created by God for a purpose.

    It appears as though your primary rejections of Christianity and Christ’s claims come from some basic tenets/premises about God:

    1) Jesus CANNOT be God because this would violate His Word when He says that there is no God but Yahweh. This premise presupposes God’s nature as SINGULAR. But … What if God’s nature weren’t singular however, but rather TRIUNE much in the same manner as human beings are body, soul, and spirit. (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

    2) Jesus CANNOT be Messiah because He doesn’t fit the traditional mold. However, I’ve often found that God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55). He often seems to use that which is weak, despised, and rejected by humanity for His glory. And that’s so fitting!!! After all --- if God used human strength and human glory, it could be said that was by humanity’s strength and salvation --- not by God’s --- that salvation comes.

    Messiah has traditionally been a highly politically charged term for Jews. It evokes thoughts of the glory of the height of the Davidic Kingdom. It’s no wonder to me why many Jews have never been able to accept Jesus as messiah.

    Christians say that this concept of messiah is TOO SMALL in God’s vision of things. Christians say that God’s view of messiah is as savior from sin and death – the doorway and focal point of all history – NOT merely an earthly political leader. That’s the difference in the terms.

    3) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because God despises human sacrifice. It is clear from Hebrew (OT) scripture how God feels about human sacrifice and frankly Christians hold to the same ethic (see Ps. 106:38).. But to me this argument is based upon a misunderstanding of the meaning of Jesus’ atonement.

    Is it such a stretch to consider that what God was actually doing by instituting the Jewish animal sacrificial system was painting a picture for humanity and foreshadowing what would be the 1 sacrifice for ALL time for ALL sin throughout time?

    As far as some of the names you mentioned there in connection with Christianity, it sounds to me as if you’ve got some misconceptions regarding Christianity itself. Undoubtedly I have some regarding Judaism myself, so would welcome correction in that arena. Far be it for me to judge anyone’s salvation. That’s simply NOT my place to do – I’m not God.

    When considering the entire salvation question there is a word picture that I'd like to try to paint. Imagine 2 circles that overlap one another slightly. One is labeled "Inside the Church" the other is labeled "Outside the Church". Now ... focus only on the area where the 2 circles overlap. This is the identified TRUE people of God --- those who are following his will. Notice that this area is made up of both circles. Again, I am NOT the ultimate judge here on who these Saved people are. I'm NOT God.

    That being said, I’ll comment on just a couple of names that stood out to me:

    Benny Hinn --- a highly controversial figure amongst Christians. There are many (including this writer) that feel that he simply plays on emotionalism and aren’t thrilled with his ministry.

    Joseph Smith – Whatever anyone ever tells you the contrary believe me on this point: Mormonism is NOT Christianity. They are very very different. Perhaps the best resource I can give you if you truly want to understand the severest criticisms about Mormonism is in Kingdom of the Cults Excellent scholarship!!! There is an entire chapter devoted to Mormonism which I highly recommend. The evidence is simply overwhelming that it is merely a man-invented faith. It’s basically an open and shut case.

    Sola Fide (MA)
     
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