LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Jesus said to the Sadducees, " God is not a God of the dead, but of the living." But Paul says that Christ is Lord both of the dead and living.
Solve the riddle.
Solve the riddle.
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Time to play Solve the Riddle.
- Thread starter LightofTruth
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Maybe jesus is saying that his god isn't the god of the spiritual dead but the spiritually living (someone whose alive in christ instead of dead to him)... while Paul is saying that of ownership-his god is owner of the living and death (the creator of both).
Jesus is talking about the nature of the spirit compared to the flesh.
Paul is talking about who owns the spirit and the flesh.
The context is different. My guess. Read this awhile back but never thought of it in terms of a riddle.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
What was the topic of Jesus' reply to the Sadducees? "The nature of spirit compared to the flesh"? .... or something else?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Not sure. That's all I remember if coming from a riddle perspective. The context, details, and all I never had the interest to look into it. Was I right, though? Jesus talking of the nature of the spirit compared to flesh and Paul talking about who owns the spirit and the flesh?
I wonder what Paul really thinks whether those who are dead in their sins are resurrected when they repent or not, and I wonder if its the same Paul in every letter attributed to Paul.
(Eph 2:1 NIV) 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
(Eph 2:4-5 NIV) 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
The answer to the riddle may not be what you want to hear. Perhaps you want to hear that your personality will be preserved into a future beyond death through miraculous means like in the story of Jesus resurrection. Despite every indication that it won't be (rotting corpses and people gone after they die) and despite Jesus preaching that you must deny yourself (rather than be yourself), you continue to seek some argument that preserves your self. It is questionable to me. What if the resurrection is not about you and me individually? What if its something that is more consistent with what we actually see happening? People die and the church lives on. Maybe that is how Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven. What if that is what it means? Is that unacceptable to you, because you won't like my answer then.
Why would I say such things if I didn't think they were so and if I didn't think it were necessary. Why would I want to say such hard things. I wouldn't. I'm acting as a friend. There's much more to eternal life, if you ask me, than individuals living forever. I don't think its the goal. I suspect that is too selfish to inspire anyone to do anything so serious as martyr themselves and it count for something. I think its too selfish to even rate on the scale. If we are trying to live forever as individuals then what is the point other than being selfish animals that want our own way.
(Eph 2:1 NIV) 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
(Eph 2:4-5 NIV) 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Suppose for a moment that a Sadducee is not a paper doll but a real person with depth, and suppose that you have no clue what Jesus is talking to them about. Suppose that you actually haven't accepted the answer to the riddle. What answers would you be willing to accept? Could it be that you simply don't want to hear certain things? You're human.
The answer to the riddle may not be what you want to hear. Perhaps you want to hear that your personality will be preserved into a future beyond death through miraculous means like in the story of Jesus resurrection. Despite every indication that it won't be (rotting corpses and people gone after they die) and despite Jesus preaching that you must deny yourself (rather than be yourself), you continue to seek some argument that preserves your self. It is questionable to me. What if the resurrection is not about you and me individually? What if its something that is more consistent with what we actually see happening? People die and the church lives on. Maybe that is how Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven. What if that is what it means? Is that unacceptable to you, because you won't like my answer then.
Why would I say such things if I didn't think they were so and if I didn't think it were necessary. Why would I want to say such hard things. I wouldn't. I'm acting as a friend. There's much more to eternal life, if you ask me, than individuals living forever. I don't think its the goal. I suspect that is too selfish to inspire anyone to do anything so serious as martyr themselves and it count for something. I think its too selfish to even rate on the scale. If we are trying to live forever as individuals then what is the point other than being selfish animals that want our own way.
Brian2
Veteran Member
What if Jesus came so that we could have life eternal and not be snuffed out.
We are not deserving of this gift but with our selfish natures we can accept it whether or not the redemptive work of Jesus encapsulates and includes the redemption of the whole of creation---and it does.
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LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The topic of Jesus' response to the Sadducees concerned the resurrection of the dead. He was not talking about the nature of the spirit compared to flesh.
Denying our selfish nature we can accept "the gift of God: eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23 paraphrase) Seems that denying it implies not fulfilling it. Abiding in the vine we are alive. "He that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live." (John 11:25 KJV) Dead and simultaneously alive? Which part is dead and which part lives? The individuality is probably the dead part, because it is the selfish and corrupt part.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Jesus said not to be deceived by those coming after him. For many will come claiming to speak in his name, but they are false prophets.
Paul came after Jesus said this.
Brian2
Veteran Member
We are all sinners, and while sinners we accept the gift of eternal life. Then God makes us spiritually alive through His Spirit in us and we hopefully cooperate in changing our mind about many things in our lives and are led by the Spirit, through faith and obedience into being a changed person. We are putting to death our carnal nature and the Spirit is producing fruit in us. When we die and are resurrected we get an improved spiritual body, meaning that we can control it by our spirit, the carnal nature being taken away presumably.
This whole thread is a bit of a riddle to me. It is hard to understand just what people are talking about.
Brian2
Veteran Member
We all came after Jesus said this.
Jesus was speaking about those who would come and claim to be Him.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
No, he said those who speak in his name.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Context. As ever.
This remark of Jesus, (Mark 12:27) comes at the end of a discussion about the resurrection of the dead, something the Sadducees did not believe in. So what he means is God is God of the resurrected, as opposed to a God of permanently dead bodies.
In other words, he is telling the Sadducees they are wrong - in fact he goes on to say "You are very much mistaken."
exchemist
Veteran Member
Resurrection of the dead.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus gave warning against false Christs and false prophets but Paul was accepted by the early church as a true teacher who agreed with what they were saying.
God gives warning in Deuteronomy I think, about people who come and say things in His name which do not come true.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
If there is no resurrection of the dead, as the Sadducees say, then God cannot be their God. God is not a God of those who die and cease to exist. God can only be the God of those who will raise from the dead.Context. As ever.
This remark of Jesus, (Mark 12:27) comes at the end of a discussion about the resurrection of the dead, something the Sadducees did not believe in. So what he means is God is God of the resurrected, as opposed to a God of permanently dead bodies.
In other words, he is telling the Sadducees they are wrong - in fact he goes on to say "You are very much mistaken."
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
"For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord ; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
exchemist
Veteran Member
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The answer to the seeming contradiction is found only if there is a resurrection of the dead.