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Time is Real or Illusion?

WalterTrull

Godfella
OK, Guess I’m gonna toss in my 2 cents, - be kind.

My Thoughts:
It’s always now. (Live life Muriel! I Don’t see how I can help but do that Richard – Ah Wilderness)
The observable universe is a mental construct. The observable now is created from scratch continuously. (This concept requires some form of “GOD” power.) What maintain a semblance of continuity are mental bricks in the now we label “the past”. We are able to influence and shape the now with a mental tool in the now we call “the future”. This mental tool shapes the future by changing or eliminating the “past” bricks. Obviously, we didn’t and don’t create all the bricks. I have a hunch, however, that we have a lot more control of the “future” tool than we realize. Also, there is an override mechanism available only to the OB (original brick maker).
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In the OP post we found that if there are two events E1 and E2 separated in space and time, then there is an objective distance that can be defined between these events which does not change no matter the observer. This is the space time distance ΔS given by


ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2


Defining the spatial distance separating the events as ΔR, so that

ΔR^2 = Δx^2 + Δy^2 +Δz^2

The equation becomes,
ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - ΔR^2

Now, let me clarify what I mean when I say that ΔS is invariant under measurement. Suppose there are two observers interested in measuring the interval separating the two events E1 and E2. But one observer O' is moving with an uniform velocity V with respect to the other observer O. Then, when O' tries to measure the time interval and the space interval separating the two events, her results will be DIFFERENT from what O will find when he measures it. Thus if O' measures the time and space separation as (Δt', ΔR') and O measures the time and space separation as (Δt, ΔR), then
Δt' ≠ Δt and ΔR ≠ ΔR'.

However, both will measure the same space-time distance between the two events. That is,

ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - ΔR^2 = (cΔt')^2 - ΔR'^2

The conclusion is that the ticking of time as well as measurement of distance is different for different observers and is dependent on the relative velocity between them. But, despite this, there exists an objective entity, the space-time distance that remains a constant and uniquely identifies the location of each and every event that happens in space and time. This is what is meant when one says that space and time are relative but joint space-time is objective.



In the next post, I will look at whether it means that ideas of past-present-future are also relative or whether they are objectively real.

Note: I will present the idea of space and time according to Einstein first and then respond to the more philosophical posts. Thanks
In the last post I talked about the objective space-time distance between events which remains the same regardless of the state of the observer doing the measurement. It's given by

ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - ΔR^2 where ΔR^2 = Δx^2 + Δy^2 +Δz^2

The physical relationship between two events is determined by the sign of ΔS^2.

When ΔS^2 > 0 then for any measuring observer, the two events are such that the speed of light c^2> (ΔR/Δt) ^2.

This means that the two events are separated by a time which is less than the time it takes for light to travel between the two events. Thus there is enough time for light to travel from the first event to the second. If one thinks of light signal traveling outwards from the first event in the form of an expanding cone in space-time, then the second event falls within this cone.
image001.gif


It also means that there can be observers moving with a certain velocity, so that for those observers, the two events appear to occur at the same location in space.

How is this possible? Imagine one is driving a car and say the driver blows the horn once, and once more 15 minutes later with respect to the clock on the driver's wrist. For the driver, the two events occur at the same location, in the steering wheel a foot in front of his body. But to a pedestrian who sees the car moving at 80 mph, the second blowing of the horn occur at 20 miles distance from the first. Crucially, however, Einstein showed that the driver and the pedestrian will not agree regarding how much time passed between the blowing of the two horns as well. But they will agree of the value of the spacetime interval ΔS^2 separating the two events.

Now let's look at what happens when ΔS^2>0.
Since we must have the square of the spatial distance separating the events ΔR^2 ≥ 0, the equation
ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - ΔR^2
implies that for all observers the events are arranged such that Δt^2 > 0.
Thus the time separation between the two events can never be zero. No observer sees the two events as being simultaneous. One event is always seen as occurring after the other.

The minimum time separating the two events is measured by the observers for whom the events happen at the same spatial location so that ΔR=0.
The time measured between the two events under such conditions is called the proper time Δτ and is given by
Δτ^2 = (ΔS/c) ^2.

Proper time will be the shortest time difference between the two events measured by any observer.

So what's the bottom line? Here they are:-
When square of the space-time distance is positive

1) The two events are separated such that the distance between them is less than the distance light can travel in the time interval separating the two events. Thus light and signals slower than light can travel from the earlier event to the later event.

2) There are observers with respect to which both events happen at the same location.

3) All observers will agree on the temporal sequence of the events. They will all agree that the first event has happened earlier than the second one. Thus event 1 is objectively in the past of event 2, and event 2 is objectively in the future of event 1. It is also the case that since light and other signals have time to reach event 2, event 1 can be a part of the causal chain that leads to event 2.

4) While all agree that event 1 happens before event 2, observers will differ regarding how much time separates the two events. But there is a minimum value of time separating the events, and this value is measured by those observers for whom both events happen at the same location. This minimum time interval is called the proper time between events.

Thus, despite the relativity of time, the events for whom the space time separation squared is positive and which are casually connected by light and other signals, we can uniquely determine the temporal sequence in which these events happened. For these events, past, present and future are objectively determinable by all observers even though the time differences measured will vary.
 
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Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Whether time is fundamental, or is a facet of some more fundamental entity of nature is still up for debate. Otherwise I agree with what you said here.
I just had a thought based on an event in the past. Before that, you are aware that some claim our universe a holograph, and I think there is some truth to that. So. . .

Quantum entanglement, the easy explanation:
Some years ago, ?10, 20, +20, this was reported. A starfish had had one of its arms cut off. This arm grew to become another starfish. What was discovered was this, that when on one starfish, an arm was manipulated, the corresponding arm on the other one, moved similarly. This was found to be true even when large distance between the two was introduced.

Conclusion possible:
If our reality is a holograph with a database of things, and lifeforms, the database could in some cases have one object with properties of entanglement - with two positions, and for organisms - one organism with two bodies (in the database, it would see it as one body that had grown larger. Time and place would not be important).

So, what would affect what we see as two objects far apart, on the database, it would actually be one object in two positions that would be affected. In this way, it wouldn't so much be a question of time and place, as about the database, and the program of the holograph.

I am not sure I have explained it clearly enough for others to see in their minds what I see in mine. But, this is what I get from the Q. entanglement.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So what's the bottom line? Here they are:-
When square of the space-time distance is positive

1) The two events are separated such that the distance between them is less than the distance light can travel in the time interval separating the two events. Thus light and signals slower than light can travel from the earlier event to the later event.

2) There are observers with respect to which both events happen at the same location.

3) All observers will agree on the temporal sequence of the events. They will all agree that the first event has happened earlier than the second one. Thus event 1 is objectively in the past of event 2, and event 2 is objectively in the future of event 1. It is also the case that since light and other signals have time to reach event 2, event 1 can be a part of the causal chain that leads to event 2.

4) While all agree that event 1 happens before event 2, observers will differ regarding how much time separates the two events. But there is a minimum value of time separating the events, and this value is measured by those observers for whom both events happen at the same location. This minimum time interval is called the proper time between events.

Thus, despite the relativity of time, the events for whom the space time separation squared is positive and which are casually connected by light and other signals, we can uniquely determine the temporal sequence in which these events happened. For these events, past, present and future are objectively determinable by all observers even though the time differences measured will vary.


You did this, but I want to emphasize: this is for those events where the square of the spacetime separation is positive!

For those events where that square is negative, things get much stranger. /E: in particular, for such pairs of events, different observers can see the temporal sequence (first, last) reversed.

In terms of quantum entanglement: one of the axioms in quantum field theory is that the correlations between quantum entangled particles have to originate in their common past light cone. The correlations remain from the formation of the entanglement. No other effect is ever seen.

Think of it like this. Suppose we flip a coin and then divide it in half, with the top face going to the right and the bottom face going to the left So, if the flip of the coin yields heads, we send the head half to the right and the tails half to the left. Similarly if the coin flip yields tails.

Now, suppose that the two pieces of that split coin are so far apart that light cannot go from one to the other. Brad is on the right and looks at his half-coin. If he sees a tail, he *knows* that Alice, on the left, will see a head for her half-coin. This is NOT a mystical transfer of information! There is no communication that can transpire between Brad and Alice. But there two results are strongly correlated. But that is because the two halves were formed at the same time and place.

In quantum systems, the situation is a bit more involved, but the basic correlations only are formed when the entangled particles are formed.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You did this, but I want to emphasize: this is for those events where the square of the spacetime separation is positive!

For those events where that square is negative, things get much stranger. /E: in particular, for such pairs of events, different observers can see the temporal sequence (first, last) reversed.
Yes, correct. For two events that are not yet causally interlinked by possible light signals, observers will disagree about the temporal sequence. I was thinking about writing about it in the next post but got bored. :p

In terms of quantum entanglement: one of the axioms in quantum field theory is that the correlations between quantum entangled particles have to originate in their common past light cone. The correlations remain from the formation of the entanglement. No other effect is ever seen.

Think of it like this. Suppose we flip a coin and then divide it in half, with the top face going to the right and the bottom face going to the left So, if the flip of the coin yields heads, we send the head half to the right and the tails half to the left. Similarly if the coin flip yields tails.

Now, suppose that the two pieces of that split coin are so far apart that light cannot go from one to the other. Brad is on the right and looks at his half-coin. If he sees a tail, he *knows* that Alice, on the left, will see a head for her half-coin. This is NOT a mystical transfer of information! There is no communication that can transpire between Brad and Alice. But there two results are strongly correlated. But that is because the two halves were formed at the same time and place.

In quantum systems, the situation is a bit more involved, but the basic correlations only are formed when the entangled particles are formed.

Also correct. :) Well put.
 

MavenMaven

New Member
Im just gonna go off the title and as much as I understand from the thread, ignore my ignorance.

IMO

Look, time is a measurement. Is an inch still and inch if we didnt call it one? Time passed by.

What is an illusion however, which is what I really think you are all arguing, is the fact of a timeline. Which, outside of creating media, or history books, obviously is an "illusion", if you could even call it that. You guys are really overthinking this. I may not understand the physics, but I do understand this;

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Isnt that the real question?

Hey- Maybe I shouldnt reply if I dont understand physics.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Time is real we need to learn to manipulate it.

First you slow time down around you, allow Lara Croft to show you.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Time is real we need to learn to manipulate it.

First you slow time down around you, allow Lara Croft to show you.
I want to know what her watch is reading through all of it. I tend to get distracted by.... other things when Laura is around.
 
Interesting ideas here. Thanks to all for the brain food. I'm not a physicist by any means, just an avid reader. I just went and looked at a few articles regarding quantum entanglements. One talks about scientists in China, using it for verified encrypted communication between the entangled particles where one was on Earth and the other on a sattelite in orbit, with distances that varied from approx 500km to 1400km and were successfully able (teleport) encrypted data. Showing that quantum entangled communication is indeed possible. They have now taken it as far as having a network setup. Also, I believe it was at phys.org, I read that the action/reaction (communication) between the two particles happens at a minimum of 10,000 times the speed of light, if not instantaneously. And another article from 2013 said they entangled 2 particles that were not from the same *time*. Not sure what any of that means in relation to the OP. I guess that it will finally come down to, as stated by someone in an earlier post, that either reality is as we experience it objectively, or it's all an illusion. However, experience cannot happen without time.
 
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