Time is Real or Illusion?

[sayak83]

This question came up in regards to another thread (and often comes in the desperate defence of YEC timelines). There are lots of confusion about what relativity says about this matter as well more modern speculations of modern theoretical cosmologists.


Let's first think about locations in space in ordinary Newtonian physics. Consider, say New York. Relative to Roger, who lives in Chicago, the location of New York in terms of North-South-East-West will be different for him than if he lives in Washington. Does this mean locations of places on earth is subjective or illusions? No it does not. Because between any two locations, the direction and distance is invariant. Thus the direction and distance between New York and Chicago is invariant and the direction and distance between New York and Boston is also invariant. It's John's position and orientation that has changed, not the locations themselves.

Thus, mathematically, the distance ΔR between any two points A and B is the same regardless of which coordinate system one chooses and how that coordinate system is oriented. It is given by
ΔR= Sqrt( Δx^2 + Δy^2 + Δz^2)
and is the same regardless of the coordinates one chooses. This is what makes spatial locations objective in Newtonian physics.


In Special Relativity, the focus is on events. Events are happenings that "happen" at specific locations in space and specific moment of time (t, x, y, z). The matrix in which events are located are therefore no longer three dimensional space but four dimensional space-time. And here too one is to objectively measure the unique spacetime distance ΔS between any two events in space-time which is invariant for all observers and all choice of the coordinates system. This space time distance between two events E1 and E2 is given by

ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2

Here c is the constant speed of light in vacuum and Δt, Δx etc. are the differences in time and x, y, z locations between the two events as measured from any specific inertial coordinate frame. The most important thing here is that no matter what inertial coordinate frame is chosen the value ΔS^2 is the same in all of them and hence it is an objective and invariant measure of space-time distance between any two events in physics.

So, we have hit upon something that is indeed objective and independent of measurement conditions. In the next post I shall look at what this means for the reality of time.

 

[PureX]

The title of this thread presumes that illusions aren't "real". I don't accept that premise.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This question came up in regards to another thread (and often comes in the desperate defence of YEC timelines). There are lots of confusion about what relativity says about this matter as well more modern speculations of modern theoretical cosmologists.


Let's first think about locations in space in ordinary Newtonian physics. Consider, say New York. Relative to Roger, who lives in Chicago, the location of New York in terms of North-South-East-West will be different for him than if he lives in Washington. Does this mean locations of places on earth is subjective or illusions? No it does not. Because between any two locations, the direction and distance is invariant. Thus the direction and distance between New York and Chicago is invariant and the direction and distance between New York and Boston is also invariant. It's John's position and orientation that has changed, not the locations themselves.

Thus, mathematically, the distance ΔR between any two points A and B is the same regardless of which coordinate system one chooses and how that coordinate system is oriented. It is given by
ΔR= Sqrt( Δx^2 + Δy^2 + Δz^2)
and is the same regardless of the coordinates one chooses. This is what makes spatial locations objective in Newtonian physics.


In Special Relativity, the focus is on events. Events are happenings that "happen" at specific locations in space and specific moment of time (t, x, y, z). The matrix in which events are located are therefore no longer three dimensional space but four dimensional space-time. And here too one is to objectively measure the unique spacetime distance ΔS between any two events in space-time which is invariant for all observers and all choice of the coordinates system. This space time distance between two events E1 and E2 is given by

ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2

Here c is the constant speed of light in vacuum and Δt, Δx etc. are the differences in time and x, y, z locations between the two events as measured from any specific inertial coordinate frame. The most important thing here is that no matter what inertial coordinate frame is chosen the value ΔS^2 is the same in all of them and hence it is an objective and invariant measure of space-time distance between any two events in physics.

So, we have hit upon something that is indeed objective and independent of measurement conditions. In the next post I shall look at what this means for the reality of time.

I don't know what you said but yes, time is an illusion. Do you think the universe tells time once we are dead? When we used the moon and sun to tell time, you think they used a 24/7 period, leap year, and designate time zones? Do animals care? Insects that live for a day while trees live longer than humans?

Yeah, humans take things for granted.

 

[sayak83]

I don't know what you said..

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, going by your title...unless your title is different than your post. Can you sum it up?

 

[sayak83]

Well, going by your title...unless your title is different than your post. Can you sum it up?

Will do.. after I make the second post.

 

[Terese]

Always enjoy your threads Sayak

 

[Polymath257]

This question came up in regards to another thread (and often comes in the desperate defence of YEC timelines). There are lots of confusion about what relativity says about this matter as well more modern speculations of modern theoretical cosmologists.


Let's first think about locations in space in ordinary Newtonian physics. Consider, say New York. Relative to Roger, who lives in Chicago, the location of New York in terms of North-South-East-West will be different for him than if he lives in Washington. Does this mean locations of places on earth is subjective or illusions? No it does not. Because between any two locations, the direction and distance is invariant. Thus the direction and distance between New York and Chicago is invariant and the direction and distance between New York and Boston is also invariant. It's John's position and orientation that has changed, not the locations themselves.

Thus, mathematically, the distance ΔR between any two points A and B is the same regardless of which coordinate system one chooses and how that coordinate system is oriented. It is given by
ΔR= Sqrt( Δx^2 + Δy^2 + Δz^2)
and is the same regardless of the coordinates one chooses. This is what makes spatial locations objective in Newtonian physics.


In Special Relativity, the focus is on events. Events are happenings that "happen" at specific locations in space and specific moment of time (t, x, y, z). The matrix in which events are located are therefore no longer three dimensional space but four dimensional space-time. And here too one is to objectively measure the unique spacetime distance ΔS between any two events in space-time which is invariant for all observers and all choice of the coordinates system. This space time distance between two events E1 and E2 is given by

ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2

Here c is the constant speed of light in vacuum and Δt, Δx etc. are the differences in time and x, y, z locations between the two events as measured from any specific inertial coordinate frame. The most important thing here is that no matter what inertial coordinate frame is chosen the value ΔS^2 is the same in all of them and hence it is an objective and invariant measure of space-time distance between any two events in physics.

So, we have hit upon something that is indeed objective and independent of measurement conditions. In the next post I shall look at what this means for the reality of time.

One proviso here. These formulas are only for special relativity, in other words, for a flat spacetime.

If you want to include gravity, which is a curvature of spacetime, then the formulas are more complex.

For example, even your formula for the distance between cities is only appropriate if you go through three dimensions. It is perfectly reasonable, however, to measure distance along a great circle path on a sphere since that is how and airplane would go. And that would give a very different equation for the distance because the curvature of the Earth has to be taken into account.

In general relativity, which deals with gravity and curved spacetime, the distance formulas need to be modified to take that curvature into account.

 

[sayak83]

Well, going by your title...unless your title is different than your post. Can you sum it up?

Second post may be delayed. So here's a jist of the first post.

Look at a desk near you. It has a certain length and width which does not change no matter what scale one uses (apart from measurement errors). This underlies our idea that distances are real things and are not illusory or subjective.

Now events or occurrences happen in certain locations and at certain times. So events are located both in space and in time. So the question in physics is, is there an objective measure of "distance" separating two events in space-time, which is independent of who is observing and by what means. The answer is there is and is given by
ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2

where ΔS is the space-time interval between two events and, like distance between ends of a table, does not change no matter who is measuring and by what means.

Why does it matter in the case of time. Note that temporal interval between events Δt, while dependent on the observer, is connected to something that Is objective and independent of observers, this ΔS. This has an impact on deciding whether (or in what way) time is Real/objective or subjective or Illusion.

 

[sayak83]

One proviso here. These formulas are only for special relativity, in other words, for a flat spacetime.

If you want to include gravity, which is a curvature of spacetime, then the formulas are more complex.

For example, even your formula for the distance between cities is only appropriate if you go through three dimensions. It is perfectly reasonable, however, to measure distance along a great circle path on a sphere since that is how and airplane would go. And that would give a very different equation for the distance because the curvature of the Earth has to be taken into account.

In general relativity, which deals with gravity and curved spacetime, the distance formulas need to be modified to take that curvature into account.

Yes. Certainly.
But I will be gratified if I can provide some elementary understanding of Einstein's ideas of space and time that at least a few people understand.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I don't know what you said but yes, time is an illusion. Do you think the universe tells time once we are dead? When we used the moon and sun to tell time, you think they used a 24/7 period, leap year, and designate time zones? Do animals care? Insects that live for a day while trees live longer than humans?

Yeah, humans take things for granted.

He said, as Shakespeare put it, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." You can call a rose a frog, but that does not change the fact that it smells sweet.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

The title of this thread presumes that illusions aren't "real". I don't accept that premise.

Something we agree on. . . . to a point I would imagine.

 

[Native]

According to ancient mythical and cosmological perception, creation is eternal and thus all cosmological motions and distances are forever changing between creation, dissolution and re-creation.
If so, the human linear time-concept is an complete illusion. (And the Einsteinian "Space-Time" certainly is pure speculation without any foot in the real cosmos)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Dont know why I asked for a summary. Its not you. Im not a physics person.

This underlies our idea that distances are real things and are not illusory or subjective.

Distances do not exist just as time doesnt. The phase of the moon on tuesday 2020 means nothing to nature just as a frog about to catch a fly and a mountain top from the plains.

Another example, I have seizures and had surgery. Joe smoe exercises daily and have no illnesses in his older years. Catherine has terminal cancer out of remission.

Im better than Catherine but worse than Joe. So, a lot of things are relative to each other. Time likewise as well as distance.

As for the physics triangles and shapes. Thats all yours.

 

[PureX]

Second post may be delayed. So here's a jist of the first post.

Look at a desk near you. It has a certain length and width which does not change no matter what scale one uses (apart from measurement errors). This underlies our idea that distances are real things and are not illusory or subjective.

There is no distance. There is only the concept of distance being created in our mind by it's imagining the transit from point "A" to point "B". And this imaginatively perceived "distance" is precisely both "illusory and subjective".

Now events or occurrences happen in certain locations and at certain times. So events are located both in space and in time.

Because we humans perceive space from a singular point of perspective, and imagine the distance/time between the infinite other singular points in space, we assume that different events are occurring in different places at different times. But this is an illusion based on our individual perspective and our subjective state of assessment.

So the question in physics is, is there an objective measure of "distance" separating two events in space-time, which is independent of who is observing and by what means. The answer is there is and is given by
ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2

Mathematics is a language. It functions only to the degree that we ignore how it doesn't. For example, nothing that exists "equals" anything else that exists until we ignore the ways in which the "two items" are not equal. And we can know this because absolute equality is the definition of 'sameness'. The only way two things can be absolutely equal is for them to be the same thing. Which is a logically incoherent state of being. Therefor, mathematics is a means that we use to define our experience of existence. It is not a means of defining existence, itself. Two sheep plus two more sheep "equals" four sheep by our limited, subjective, and conditional experience of those particular sheep in that particular situation. The concept of equality "works" for us, there, because we can functionally ignore the ways in which the sheep are unequal. But the sheep are unequal, and adding them together in bunches does not make them equal. Which is why mathematics cannot define reality, but instead, defines only our experience/perception of reality. (Which is not the same thing.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Time is very useful for making money in engineering.
Like mass, distance & other possibly illusory things, it's real enuf for me.
But I might be a Turing test.

 

[bobhikes]

Second post may be delayed. So here's a jist of the first post.

Look at a desk near you. It has a certain length and width which does not change no matter what scale one uses (apart from measurement errors). This underlies our idea that distances are real things and are not illusory or subjective.

Now events or occurrences happen in certain locations and at certain times. So events are located both in space and in time. So the question in physics is, is there an objective measure of "distance" separating two events in space-time, which is independent of who is observing and by what means. The answer is there is and is given by
ΔS^2 = (cΔt)^2 - Δx^2 - Δy^2 - Δz^2

where ΔS is the space-time interval between two events and, like distance between ends of a table, does not change no matter who is measuring and by what means.

Why does it matter in the case of time. Note that temporal interval between events Δt, while dependent on the observer, is connected to something that Is objective and independent of observers, this ΔS. This has an impact on deciding whether (or in what way) time is Real/objective or subjective or Illusion.

Unlike the Table which just sits there to be remeasured over and over again, the space-time interval between two events is only measurable in the moment (if at all). Take a satellite heading towards the sun and the earth base sending it commands, there is no objective measurement of space-time interval, as soon as you had one it would be wrong.

Also molecularly the table is always changing in size and shape which over years will show up in wear. Even in a vacuum the table will change on the molecular level.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes. Certainly.
But I will be gratified if I can provide some elementary understanding of Einstein's ideas of space and time that at least a few people understand.

Understood.

You do *very* good work explaining a wide variety of ideas!

 

[sun rise]

A great science-based video is:

Prof. Brian Greene - Past Present & Future Exist Now

 

[shunyadragon]

Will do.. after I make the second post.

I think a better title id 'What is time?'