Time is a myth, time is real, time is unreal, time is....

[Terry Sampson]

You may want to check your record: Either it's badly scratched or broken.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

What you can't see is not especially relevant, though, is it?

That depends! Bullets are difficult to see after they leave a firearm! Ha ha (a funny). That said sometimes a bullet is visible as are main gun rounds from some tanks...

I know that is not what you meant, I am a little unsure of your point, please tell more! I am aware time is relative to the observer as per Einstein, and motion (velocity) or mass etc. changes how time behaves according to observers. Is that what you were saying?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Makes sense.
There are levels of reality. Time is different in each one. What's "real" largely depends on how you're defining real and what level of reality you're talking about.

The time described by special relativity is not the time of our everyday sensory experience.

If it were intuitive it wouldn't have taken an Einstein to discover it.

I said the same but just described it in more detail. The intuitive time I was referencing is the traditional concept of time, that is time which seems to flow forward from the past to the present to the future. Of course it doesn't. So Physicists differentiate intuitive time from space time. Maybe the web can explain it better and in more detail; From the web;

"The intuitive and traditional idea of space and time is that objects live in an infinite three-dimensional box, space, and that their motion in space happen in time in such a way that at each definite moment in time all objects have a position, and we can compare those positions because time flows the same for all objects. Physicists discovered that there is no such box, and there is no such flow of time". What is spacetime (simple explanation)?.

Einstein discovered space time, which was different from the old way of thinking about time (intuitive time),

The arrow of time is intuitive; simultaneity is intuitive. Both are objectively wrong.
Time dilation/Twin Paradox, seem ridiculous; as does Lorenz contraction/Ladder paradox. Both are objectively real." Intuitive commonsense: "The past no longer exists. The future does not yet exist. Only the present is real."
Einstein: "Balderdash!"

Again I said the same, again, but in more detail ! Thanks for your reply....

I am Groot!

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Did time exist before the big bang? before there was space? Or is time just an abstract concept created by the living -whose life is totally dependent on it's growth and eventual death -thus inventing the concept based on us projecting ourselves onto the universe?

Answer that my friend, and you will receive awards that makes the Nobel prize seem like a Bozo button! As commonly known Physics break down as do all scientific tests just before the big bang begins, so what happens before the BB is the realm of Philosopher's and science fiction writers. I have my ideas which align with William Craig's (Christian Apologist and professor at Talbot U) but for now all such musings are not empirically testable. That said I highly suspect the current scientific establishment's beloved empirical methodology is not as reliable as claimed anyway.

...It could be that everything is just flying around in space, randomly and / or whatever, and time is just our own paradigm... Based on the fact that we die.

Yes I feel intuitive time, meaning the kind of time most of us experience as flowing' from the past to the future is certainly an illusion. Additionally so is 'present' not real according to the real time of the universe! Our extraordinary brain creates this false reality so we humans can navigate a time line, a path we call a life time.

 

[Laika]

The concept of time, or space Time* is after religious beliefs and questions about God are what I think about when spare time allows. It's so very obvious that Time* as explained to the masses by the scientific community and by Philosophers is either wrong or incomplete. As I said I believe some theories are more incomplete than wrong. For instance Einstein, Gödel travel (closed timelike curves) aren't wrong but their theories of spacetime where Gödel collaborated with Einstein are probably incomplete due to a failure to incorporate quantum theory in the theories that concerns Time. My current personal ideas concerning the nature of time may be even less complete or more in error as the current scientific view! According to scientists and philosophers who research the subject of 'Time' and formulating an accurate theory etc is very problematic. Formulating a TOE&Unified theory that includes time is impossible! So scientists and Philosophers have competing theories and hypotheses describing time and space Time* including peripheral subjects.

I believe if a true and complete theory of time can be formulated a leprechaunish rainbow will form leading our scientific establishment to not a pot of gold but something far more important. That rainbow will lead to a TOE and a GUT** (see notes). Will a TOE & GUT complete science and explain everything in the Universe? No. But maybe, just maybe, when Science has a 'true' and complete TOE/GUT it will provide the ground work to understand the remaining 94+% of the Universe! That 94+% is composed of Dark Matter and energy, if our science is capable of explaining what that stuff is, the things the human race can do will be 'God like' imo. Ok, so the questions/talking points are if anyone dares;

(1)....... Do you believe ; The A-theory now called "Presentism". Presentism states only the present is objectively real. This is the view most coherent with most (indeterministic) interpretations of quantum mechanics. Indeterministic quantum theory supports parallel universe and the Many Worlds Theory.

(2).......B-theory is re-formulated and updated into "Eternalism", or the "block-universe" view. This is the view naturally arising from the usual presentations of special and general relativity. My ideas such as they are employ the B theory.

(3.)..... Other, which include but not limited to; Time is an illusion, supported by Scientific Philosopher Julian Barbour and David Deutsch whose theory of time is very similar. Both incorporate the Many Worlds Theory of QM. There are other less supported theories or maybe you have your own? Please expand on any theory of time or related subject.

Lastly there are notes usually to define a word or concept indicated by the ****'s asterisks after a word or phrase.


NOTES;

*..... Space Time and time are different. Space time' is the theory that time and space are 'woven' together, and usually represented as an upper case 'T' in scientific papers or general correspondence among scientist's or scientifically minded people. The other time is intuitive time that seems to flow. Its denoted as a lower case 't' when possible.

**... TOE/GUT (also ToE)... The GUT theory is a theory that combines three of the four fundamental forces together, called Grand Unified Theory. A TOE is The Theory of Everything meaning a unified theory of all physical fields, including gravity. In principle, if a ToE were formulated it would be possible to derive every other natural law from them, including all the laws nature!

The end...... : {> ~

I have assumed that time is objectively real. You just sort of “do” in your everyday activities. Thats mainly based on individual sense perception as I am inclined to be sceptical of those who claim time isn’t real not having experienced the unreality of time myself.

It is something so central to my understanding and perception of reality that I’m inclined to go “hang on here- what are you really saying to me?”

 

[Terry Sampson]

It is something so central to my understanding and perception of reality that I’m inclined to go “hang on here- what are you really saying to me?”

They're saying that God Himself is a Relativist.

 

[Laika]

They're saying that God Himself is a Relativist.

It's difficult because as much as I respect science, I don't want to accept something on authority alone. putting a label of something and saying "that's science" isn't enough for me. I might not do it all the time, but for something as counter-intuitive as time not being "real", ok, maybe it's worth sticking your neck.

 

[Terry Sampson]

what are you really saying to me?”

However, I have it on good authority that God Himself is an Anti-relativist; an agnostic atheist told me so.

for something as counter-intuitive as time not being "real", ok, maybe it's worth sticking your neck.

IMO, you would do yourself a favor by tossing the mutually exclusive terms "intuitive" and "counter-intuitive" up on your "irrelevancies" shelf for now.

• Either there is one and only one boundless, eternal world/universe/cosmos,
  
• Or there isn't.
• If there is,
  • then, I say, it's a clock, and
    
  • there is no such possibility as "being outside of" the world/universe/cosmos,
    
  • nor is there any such possibility as "being before the world/universe/cosmos existed",
  • nor any such possibility as "being after the world/universe/cosmos existed".
• If there isn't, IMO, somebody has some explaining to do.
• The notion that GPS wouldn't work in an infinite, or eternal, or infinite and eternal world/universe/cosmos seems to me to be the product of someone's overactive imagination and I don't understand

 

[Laika]

However, I have it on good authority that God Himself is an Anti-relativist; an agnostic atheist told me so.


IMO, you would do yourself a favor by tossing the mutually exclusive terms "intuitive" and "counter-intuitive" up on your "irrelevancies" shelf for now.

• Either there is one and only one boundless, eternal world/universe/cosmos,
  
• Or there isn't.
• If there is,
  • then, I say, it's a clock, and
    
  • there is no such possibility as "outside of" the world/universe/cosmos,
    
  • nor is there any such possibility as "before the world/universe/cosmos existed",
  • nor any such possibility as "after the world/universe/cosmos existed".
• If there isn't, IMO, somebody has some explaining to do.
• The notion that GPS wouldn't work in an infinite, or eternal, or infinite and eternal world/universe/cosmos seems to me to be the product of someone's overactive imagination and I don't understand

Why should I reject the evidence of my own senses?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Why should I reject the evidence of my own senses?

Did something I say suggest that you should?

 

[Laika]

Did something I say suggest that you should?

I'm not sure. But It sounds weird believing in something as dramatic as time not being real without having seen it myself.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

First let me say I apologize to the forum for my lack of skill in writing non-fiction, fiction, including this semi-science thread. I mean the material is accurate, but the length is too much and the composition is, well awful! It's very difficult for me to write articles about simple normal events, difficult subjects like theoretical physics are even harder to write in short form ! In fact my English grammar professors/teachers gave up on me, one had tears in her eyes! I was so bad in those subject that was going to cheat in the final exam(s) but was saved by that immoral aberration by a barely passing mark!

I have assumed that time is objectively real. You just sort of “do” in your everyday activities. Thats mainly based on individual sense perception as I am inclined to be skeptical of those who claim time isn’t real not having experienced the unreality of time myself.

I understand that. The idea that time is an illusion is more science that most of us want to learn. And I never experience time's unreality. Space time and time are two different things. Intuitive time is everyday normal time that seems to flow day to day. Space time is Space and time combined which creates what scientist's call the 'fabric' of the universe. Its called a fabric simply for a visual aid. So intuitive time is not real because it has to be false for us to make sense of our world. The illusion of time that our brain creates allows us to do things ,like planning future events etc. That's why I call it a necessary illusion.

It is something so central to my understanding and perception of reality that I’m inclined to go “hang on here- what are you really saying to me?”

For all intensive reasons intuitive time is sufficient to explain most things in our daily lives. Only scientist's and laypeople like myself interested in why things are as they are would take issue with not knowing the particulars of time. Your idea of reality is sufficient for everything except for advanced science and if you are interested on the nature of truth. If however you like I go nuts when I don't know about truth etc. I would say its time to study, study, study! Personally I hope I will emerge from the darkness of ignorance and not knowing about things that interest me (lol).

I hope I haven't made things worse! Additionally the paragraph below is from the web and is relevant to this thread.

"We review the idea (Of time being an illusion...MrMr's addition), due to Einstein, Eddington, Hoyle and Ballard, that time is a subjective label, whose primary purpose is to order events, perhaps in a higher-dimensional universe. In this approach, all moments in time exist simultaneously, but they are ordered to create the illusion of an unfolding experience by some physical mechanism. This, in the language of relativity, may be connected to a hypersurface in a world that extends beyond spacetime. Death in such a scenario may be merely a phase change."

 

[Skwim]

Of course time is real. It's what makes us late.

​

Actually, time is the result of change. Any kind of change!. If nothing, and mean absolutely nothing, changed time would not exist. Which means as long as matter exists, which is composed of atoms in which electrons move about---change position---time exists. And no one has to be about for it to happen. So humans have nothing to do with the reality of time. It exists aside from ourselves.

.

.​

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

They're saying that God Himself is a Relativist.

Funny! Ha ha....A relativist God would be interesting and more scary than the angel of death Exodus. The God I worship God has to be an 'absolutist'. Relativist God is a contradiction of terms if God is the God described by Christianity. In my opinion God is allowing Trump to save our republic. I really do believe that Trump is influenced by the Creator. The flip side of our president are those satanically influenced Trump hating Dems. Sorry for expressing my political views it's a good thing I'm not making the above statements at Berkley U without body armor and a big stick. Conservative speakers are nor allowed there or other cesspools of liberalism. The liberals at the ultra liberal universities are anti-free speech anti-free thinking anti-human! I would be stoned for talking nice about Trump and bad about …. Oooops there I go again! I do 'lose it' when thinking about such things and go off on a triade filled tangent.....

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Of course time is real. It's what makes us late. Actually, time is the result of change. Any kind of change!. If nothing, and mean absolutely nothing, changed time would not exist. Which means as long as matter exists, which is composed of atoms in which electrons move about---change position---time exists. And no one has to be about for it to happen. So humans have nothing to do with the reality of time. It exists aside from ourselves.

I am not so sure you are correct. Actually I am not sure I am correct either! Ha...ehhh', while I've found answers for most questions and subjects that trouble and/or interest me, understanding time though isn't one of them. I am not sure of what time is even after years of study. Searching for times secrets was like a hobby that went well with my other hobby astronomy. At his stage I am fairly happy with that what I have learned about time. I am fairly certain time does not exist the way most of us believe. I used to think entropy of matter was linked with time. Now I am not so sure! The newly verified gravitational waves predicted by Einstein and they exist without time. After the event horizon of a black hole is crossed there is no time. So what's the dope? I am not 100% sure reality is real meaning accurate. I have began a enjoyable slippery slope ride down the metaphysical slide. Its obvious that time and reality are linked to both metaphysical and natural or physical (meaning mass made of atoms etc.) level. But the jury is still out and it may remain out until a new discovery of a world changing 'scope'' happens or a new physics are developed. It wouldn't hurt to merge metaphysics with positivism and empirical vetting creating a new scientific methodology....Oh well (sigh) sorry the above thoughts are more depressing to me than finding out there was no Santa clause!

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

It seems that as expected intuitive time is 'good enough' for a majority of the members that commented, a deeper explanation is not really needed. In addition we all seem 'time curious', that is curious about the deeper meaning and definition of time. Intuitive time i.e. the kind of time we recognized as children would be good enough for me too except that the definition of time is a necessary component of my spiritual beliefs.

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

 

[Straw Dog]

Time is what a clock reads.

It’s a method of measurement relative to the cyclical motion of repetitive cosmic events and life spans.

 

[Straw Dog]

In more poetic terms...

In eternity, where there is no time, nothing can grow. Nothing can become. Nothing changes.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Why should I reject the evidence of my own senses?

Don't toss them, keep em'. We need that illusion to navigate in our universe! Also, it's difficult to not think of time as flowing, that is today 'passes' and tomorrow is coming, and we think of the past like it has already 'gone'. There is no reason to reject your brains story, unless you are a physicist etc. For me time is just a way our brain separates events of 'block time'. The universe isn't really 'tensed'. Think of block time as the universe start to finish is like a loaf of rye bread and the slices are time, the seeds are events. Not the best analogy but it's fairly accurate! Our senses also measure the entropy or decay i.e. order to disorder of matter based objects according to our 2nd law of thermodynamics. That helps support the illusion of intuitive time. I think considering the fact that we already have shown time passes slower as gravity increases, or as one observer accelerates away from another the observer would see the observed time slow and as the observed gets close to light speed time nearly stops for the observed according to the observer. (confusing to write!)

So how can time be real?

 

[Laika]

Don't toss them, keep em'. We need that illusion to navigate in our universe! Also, it's difficult to not think of time as flowing, that is today 'passes' and tomorrow is coming, and we think of the past like it has already 'gone'. There is no reason to reject your brains story, unless you are a physicist etc. For me time is just a way our brain separates events of 'block time'. The universe isn't really 'tensed'. Think of block time as the universe start to finish is like a loaf of rye bread and the slices are time, the seeds are events. Not the best analogy but it's fairly accurate! Our senses also measure the entropy or decay i.e. order to disorder of matter based objects according to our 2nd law of thermodynamics. That helps support the illusion of intuitive time. I think considering the fact that we already have shown time passes slower as gravity increases, or as one observer accelerates away from another the observer would see the observed time slow and as the observed gets close to light speed time nearly stops for the observed according to the observer. (confusing to write!)

So how can time be real?

Time is real because the world is real (or so I would assume). Its very hard to isolate one aspect of reality in the abstract and say “this is not real, but everything else is”.

If time is not real, as the dimension governing motion in the universe, what else is or is not real?