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Featured Time: Does the Bible say what Time is?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by SA Huguenot, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I noticed how fellow members discussed Time on one of the threads about if life is found on Mars, will we be able to handle it?.
    What I found is that various claims are made about the attributes of "Time", and there is a lot of misunderstandings as well as solid facts explained by all.

    I thought it will be a nice thread to create to have everyone scrutinizing, not only their opinions, but also mine.
    Well, my understanding comes from the Biblical view, because I have learned quite a while ago that using knowledge from this point of view always turns out to be logical and conclusive.
    So, Here Go!

    Concerning Time, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
    And God said, "Let there be light...and it was evening, and morning, the first day..."
    Then the Sun, Moon and Stars shone on the Earth on the 4th day, and God said: "... Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years".
    And many times God says that He was before Time exists before everlasting and so on. (Isaiah 57:15; psalms 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 103:17)

    So, lets see how the Bible describes "Time"!
    • Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
    • After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
    • Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
    • The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".
    In otherwords.
    God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
    Then God said light should come in existance, and the first day kicked off. God then described how Time will be measured with the use of the Earth turning on its axis with the Sun shining on it, creating days.
    The Bible also says the Earth and Sun will be the mecanism to count days. seasons, and years!

    Now, lets see:
    Time does not actually exist, and it is just by accident that the movement of the Earth and Sun plays the role of the clockwork of Time, and that we age and uses this clockwork to determine our age.

    Therefore, Time is only a measurement on where the Earth and Sun is in relation to each other.
    Before this "First day" existed, Time did not exist!
    The Bible calls this time period before day one to the first cause, "In the Beginning", and I always say, if scientists wants to call this period "Billions of years", they are welcome to do so, it is not in contradiction with the Bible.
    Actually the Biblical description is way better than the Scientific one.
    The Bible say the Universe was created before the Earth in "Zero Time", or before the first day.
    Science says, the Universe was created 12.5 Billion years ago, and the Solar System (Earth) only 4.5 billion years ago.

    Ok, so if we use the Earth and Sun as clockwork to determine "Time", but the Earth and Sun was absent for 8 Billion years, how does the Scientists measure the time from the beginning to the creation of the earth?
    easy, they use imaginary time!

    Ok, so Time is a by product of movement of matter in space.
    If we have Matter in space, and it remains stationary, down to quantum levels, with no photons moving, everything is a complete standstill, there will not be any "Time" to measure at all.

    I think this will give perspective on a thought that God is somehow bound by Time, and He had a Beginning.
    God is outside of creation, that is matter moving in space, therefore he does not abide in time at all.

    What do you thinkl of my analysis?
     
    #1 SA Huguenot, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    According to the Genesis story in the Bible, Time absolutely exists. Otherwise, the very first word, "In the beginning" is meaningless. Time existed before God created Heaven and Earth or else, creation didn't occur at the "beginning".

    I'm not sure that God is bound to Time. And as far as I know, God did not have a beginning, God always existed, and will always exist. This comes from the meaning of the 4 letter-name.

    Good Morning :)
     
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  3. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    The biblical point of time view doesn´t compete with several other religions who claim the creation to be of an eternal motion which of course exclude the biblical/vestern and scientific time conception.
     
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  4. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    1. "Time (#1)", a.k.a. "relative time", is a measurement accomplished using an analog or digital "clock", e.g. an alarm clock, watch, or planetary movement. As such, "relative time" is what a clock says it is.
    2. "Time (#2)", a.k.a. "absolute time," is an abstract noun which refers to an abstract entity called a set. A set is a collection of things, in this case: of all possible instants, each of which is also an abstract entity
      • Like numbers and sets of numbers, which are also abstract entities and sets, the instants and sets of two or more instants, up to and including the set of all instants, play essential roles in the correct description of physical objects and of how physical objects are related to each other. The physical universe, the real world, exists in an open-ended linear continuum of states that replace one another in a certain order and at a certain rate. The notion of time abstracts from the real world the continuous structure, the metric properties and the ordering relations of this continuous change while ignoring entirely the structure of that which changes.
      • One thing that never changes is the structure of time. That the structure of time never changes is not an arbitrary presumption. If anything at all is to change, there must be some standard that does not change so that the rates of change of those things that do change can be measured by comparison to that standard. To suppose that the standard with reference to which rates of change are measured is itself one of the things that changes is incoherent; it makes complete nonsense out of the concept ‘rate of change’.
    3. Obviously, any Time (#1) has a beginning and, assuming the eventual deterioration of a given clock, an end. The set of all possible instants of Absolute Time, i.e. Time (#2), has no beginning or end.
    4. The "time" that SA Huguenot says God is outside of is "relative time", i.e. Time (#1). The "time" that SA Huguenot does not speak of is Absolute Time, and nothing in the Cosmos, be it God or gods or Brahman or Allah or Consciousness is outside of that.
    5. "Time is on my side; yes, it is; yes, it is."
     
  5. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    Nice answer.
    I do however read from the Bible that "Measurable Time"; iow, day, month and year, did not exist before the Sun shone on the earth.
    To conclude, before the first day, time existed in an unmeasurable entity, form "in the beginning" untill the "first day".
    So, at best one can say that in this era, time existed, but it is impossible to have measured it as we measure time today.

    The best we can do is to see how far a certain galaxy is, and how long it's light would have taken to have reached the Earth.
    The date of 12.5 billion years for the Universe is a calculated theory postulated how long ago the whole universe would have had a "Big Bang" as its origin.
    This is actually making a statement that the Universe did not exist in eternity, but had a beginning.
    Nice, also a Biblical concept.
     
  6. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    IMO you have to consider the extend of the ancient known part of the Universe. It is my opinion that the ancient stories of creation deals with the creation of our Milky Way and its contents, included our Solar System. These stories of creation then speaks of the preconditions, principles and beginning of the creation of the Milky Way and NOT about the beginning creation of the entire Universe.
     
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  7. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see which religion has a better explanation than the Bible in Genesis.
    Show me please.
     
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The only problem I have with this definition is that if an Instant is a human construct, then Time is also a human construct. It makes Time seem imaginary, doesn't it? I feel like Time is one of the fundamental components of reality similar to energy.
     
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  9. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting what you say.
    Absolute time to you is in the Cosmos, if I am correct.
    I would like to know if this absolute Time you speak about, exists outside of the cosmos?
    If it does, I would like to know if this absolute Time existed before the Creation of the Cosmos?
    And lastly, is this absolute Time a measurable entity?
     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I agree 100%.

    The Genesis story in the Bible is just the tip of iceberg, IMHO.
     
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  11. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    re: #1. The Cosmos IS Absolute Time's clock. So, yeah, I suppose Absolute Time is "in the Cosmos"; although, initially, that strikes me as odd as saying "Relative Time" is "in your watch".
    re: #2. Given my response to your #1 above, I hope that you'll understand me when I say: An Absolute Time outside of the cosmos does not compute. They co-exist. Can't have one without the other.
    re: #3. My "No" to your #2 necessarily demands a "No" to your #3.
    re: #4. Portions, i.e. subsets of it, are. The whole kit n' kaboodle? Nope.
     
  12. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I thought of this for a while and came to the opinion that Time is not, as they say, a continium.
    I remember how Ken Hovint explained that Matter, Space and Time is a continium and created.
    He sounded very scientific in doing so, untill I realised he was using scientific terminology to make things sound smart.

    I then decided to think about Time for myself, studied the theory ot Special and General relativity, looked at Michelson and Morley's experiment, learned the Laurentz transformation.
    I came to the conclusion that Time is not a created thing, but a simple measurement of how far something moves in relation to each other, [using the Sun and Earth's movement as the clockwork]

    Think about this.
    If the Earth and Sun runs slower, or faster, on its axis as well as its circumvention, will we know it is changeing?
    What if we imagine ourself in the universe where a Sun and Earth does not exist?
    Will we use some other planetary system as the clockwork to determine the length of the Year?

    And lets our imagination run a bit wild.
    What if we live only a breef moment and see only a flash of the universe and think it stood completely still and were of thought we lived a thousand eons?

    I think Time is imaginary.
     
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  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Thank you, this is a fun topic for me.
     
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  14. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    Then I am correct in my thinking that your Absolute Time does not exist outside of the Cosmos.
    Think about this one.
    If God created the Cosmos, He is not part of this cosmos, but existed before it, and He was in a place where the cosmos never existed.
    This will mean there is another existance where God abide, and he created the cosmos in it, so to say as a antfarm in your room where time for the ant is "ant Time", and has nothing to do with the time in the Room.

    You are actually in agreement that any God outside the cosmos, is not part of this cosmos.
    He does not abide with our cosmos' time at all.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Time and Light.... they are a mystery.
     
  16. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking about Time since I was a young boy in the 70's when I first saw Einsteins' theories animated on TV.
    Over the years I kept going back to this theory that if we travel at the speed of Light, Time will stop. (Time Dilation)
    The same with travelling at C, (speed of light) lenght will contract, and you will be able to park a train in a small garage.
    and your spaceship travelling that speed will become infinately heavy.

    I learned that very highly educated physicists done have a clue on what Time is.
    Its like gravity, we can feel its effect, write books and scientific articles about it, but we dont know what Gravity is.
    The best I could do was to play minimalist, and to reduce all the theories, and I realised Time is only a measurement of 2 objects moving in relation to each other, in relation to the solar system,s movement.
    This is why I like to hear what you guys say.
    And, everything goes.
    Even "Absolute Time"
     
  17. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    I agree except for 'time existing before God created Heaven and Earth". (John 1:1) says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So, in the beginning was God. But God has always existed, so because He was before the beginning, he was before time.

    With time, it seems to me, you need both a start and an end. The start would be 'in the beginning'. The end will be the accomplishment of His purpose and the end of all that He has created

    (Eph. 1:10) (1 Peter 4:7) (Rev. 21:1-7)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
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  18. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    The notion (or concept) of "time" is, at least here on earth and among us earthlings, a human construct. [Check with Aliens in the other concurrent thread to see what they say about it.] "Time" is as imaginary as any other abstract noun. That you "feel" like Time is a fundamental component of reality similar to energy is your hurdle to jump. Try this (without any guarantee that doing so will shed light on the matter): Try to imagine an infinite Cosmos that has always existed and always will exist, like a laboratory without walls. Within the laboratory, the tiny, tiny thing we and mainstream physicists and the Bible call "the Universe", that we know and love, is undergoing construction. It's part of the Cosmos, but it's certainly not ALL of the Cosmos. It has a beginning and an end. The Cosmos, i.e. infinite, eternal laboratory has no beginning and end. Construction of universes within the Cosmos is going on in different places throughout the Cosmos: it always has and always will.
     
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  19. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    This is something else I sat and thought about.
    Light travels at about 300 000 Km/sec (C).
    Now, I also heard Creationists say that Light could have travelled at a different speed before, and might even be solwing down.
    Well, man was not there to measure it, and such a claim is only a theory without any substance.
    Then I thought this.
    Lets say Light always travelled at C.
    And we know the universe is expanding.
    Does this mean the light still travelled 300 000 Km/sec 8.49 billion years ago when the universe was say half its size it is today?
    Does this mean that light teavelled right through the universe at half the time it would if it did the same today?
    This means that either light travelled slower when the universe was smaller, and it is travelling faster now that the universe is bigger, and will gain speed as the universe increases.
    But our measurements will continue to see that light travells at a constant speed, because as the universe streaches out, light moves faster, resulting in us measuring a faster beam over a longer distance.
     
  20. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    You make me think quite a lot.
    TNX pal.
    If you accept a cosmos that always existed, you will obviously have no problem with the concept of a Creator who also existed?
     
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