tibetan deities in what way do they exist

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namastedear dharma freinds

I post you a wonderfull story told by an eminant lama ....

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Chandragomin and Chandrakirti[/SIZE][/FONT]

At one time Chandragomin and Chandrakirti debated. Chandrakirti would immediately reply to any statements Chandragomin made. Chandragomin, on the other hand, would take his time to answer - sometimes he would wait until the next day. His answers were very precise and clear. Chandrakirti was perplexed and wondered, "Why does Chandragomin wait when his answers are so sharp and strong?" He decided to spy on Chandragomin. So Chandrakirti peeped through Chandragomin's door one evening and saw that he was praying to a statue of the noble Chenrezig. The statue was telling Chandragomin, "The next thing you should say is this..., and then you should say that ..." Chandrakirti burst into the room and told the statue, "Chenrezig, you are being biased. You are helping Chandragomin and you are not asking me. What is the reason for this kind of behavior?" Chenrezig's statue froze in the middle of this conversation and became known as "the pointing Chenrezig" because he stayed like that. Chandragomin and Chandrakirti became good friends. Chandrakirti later wrote a book on Sanskrit grammar. Chandragomin also wrote a book on Sanskrit grammar. He looked at Chandrakirti's book and realized that it was brilliant and thought that his own book was bad in comparison. He pondered, "There was no use in my writing this book because it is not good compared to Chandrakirti's." So he threw the book into a well. Chenrezig appeared to Chandragomin and said, "Chandrakirti has been a great scholar for many lifetimes. When he wrote the grammar book he had pride. He thought he was a great scholar and was writing a great book." Chandrigomin had written his grammar book with a pure wish to help others. For that reason, Chenrezig told Chandragomin that Chandrakirti's book would not help others in the future, whereas his book would. Chenrezig prophesized this. Today Chandrakirti's book does not exist. There is no copy of this book, whereas Chandragomin's book does benefit beings. -- Thrangu Rinpoche
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after reading such a story on what level do you feel that deities exist according to tibetan buddhism ?

​

 

[DreadFish]

namaskaram :namastedear dharma freinds

I post you a wonderfull story told by an eminant lama ....

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Chandragomin and Chandrakirti[/SIZE][/FONT]

At one time Chandragomin and Chandrakirti debated. Chandrakirti would immediately reply to any statements Chandragomin made. Chandragomin, on the other hand, would take his time to answer - sometimes he would wait until the next day. His answers were very precise and clear. Chandrakirti was perplexed and wondered, "Why does Chandragomin wait when his answers are so sharp and strong?" He decided to spy on Chandragomin. So Chandrakirti peeped through Chandragomin's door one evening and saw that he was praying to a statue of the noble Chenrezig. The statue was telling Chandragomin, "The next thing you should say is this..., and then you should say that ..." Chandrakirti burst into the room and told the statue, "Chenrezig, you are being biased. You are helping Chandragomin and you are not asking me. What is the reason for this kind of behavior?" Chenrezig's statue froze in the middle of this conversation and became known as "the pointing Chenrezig" because he stayed like that. Chandragomin and Chandrakirti became good friends. Chandrakirti later wrote a book on Sanskrit grammar. Chandragomin also wrote a book on Sanskrit grammar. He looked at Chandrakirti's book and realized that it was brilliant and thought that his own book was bad in comparison. He pondered, "There was no use in my writing this book because it is not good compared to Chandrakirti's." So he threw the book into a well. Chenrezig appeared to Chandragomin and said, "Chandrakirti has been a great scholar for many lifetimes. When he wrote the grammar book he had pride. He thought he was a great scholar and was writing a great book." Chandrigomin had written his grammar book with a pure wish to help others. For that reason, Chenrezig told Chandragomin that Chandrakirti's book would not help others in the future, whereas his book would. Chenrezig prophesized this. Today Chandrakirti's book does not exist. There is no copy of this book, whereas Chandragomin's book does benefit beings. -- Thrangu Rinpoche
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after reading such a story on what level do you feel that deities exist according to tibetan buddhism ?

​

I think the story is in no way intended to give an example as to the way that deities exist. Chenrezig is an element in the story which was apparently meant to teach a different lesson. It's probably not a historically factual story.

So, I wouldn't make an assertion as to the nature of deities based on this story.

 

[metis]

Why must one believe one way or the other?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram metis ji :namaste

Why must one believe one way or the other?

it is not nececary to beleive one way or the other everything is open to peraonal levels of realisation .:namaste

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram deradfish ji :namaste

I think the story is in no way intended to give an example as to the way that deities exist. Chenrezig is an element in the story which was apparently meant to teach a different lesson. It's probably not a historically factual story.

So, I wouldn't make an assertion as to the nature of deities based on this story.

the story is not intended to prove or dissprove the existance of deiety forms it is told to illustrate another point , being that of faith , intent or motivation . the apperance of the deity form is secondary to the story but within the story is unwriten acceptance of the manifestation of the deity in form .
coming from the gelugspa tradition we were fondly taught this story as if it were an historical account .

just interested in how people respond to it :namaste

 

[ratikala]

a little history on chandragomin ....

Chandragomi (c 7th century) famous grammarian. According to Tibetan sources, he was born in a ksatriya family in the northern varendra region. He subsequently embraced buddhism.
Chandragomi was a disciple of Sthiramati, the abbot of Nalanda Mahavihar. At Nalanda Chandragomi studied Buddhism, sanskrit grammar, literature, logic. It is widely believed that Chandrakirti, the chancellor of Nalanda Mahavihar, received him cordially after his return from a tour of South India and Sri Lanka. Later on, Chandragomi became the abbot of Nalanda.
Chandragomi wrote about 36 books on the Buddhist vajrayana worship and several treatises on tara and Manjusri. However, it is not clear whether Chandragomi, the grammarian and Nyaya philosopher, and the tantric Chandragomi are the same. Bhartrihari in Vakyapadiya and Kalhan in Rajatarangini mention Chandracharya, a grammarian. Some believe that Chandracharya and Chandragomi are the same. Vamanajayaditya, in his annotation Kashika,cites 35 rules from Chandragomi. Therefore, it is believed that Chandragomi was alive in the 7th century or earlier.
Chandragomi's famous grammar, chandravyakaran (Grammar by Chandra), a simplification on Panini's Astadhyayi, was in wide circulation in Sri Lanka, Kashmir, Tibet and Nepal. It is believed that Chandragomi also wrote a book on logic named Nyayasiddhyaloka. [Kanailal Ray]

 

[DreadFish]

namaskaram deradfish ji :namaste




the story is not intended to prove or dissprove the existance of deiety forms it is told to illustrate another point , being that of faith , intent or motivation . the apperance of the deity form is secondary to the story but within the story is unwriten acceptance of the manifestation of the deity in form .
coming from the gelugspa tradition we were fondly taught this story as if it were an historical account .

just interested in how people respond to it :namaste

Yeah, I just took the appearance of Chenrezig to be a story element to illustrate the value of pure intention. Chenrezig appeared to Chandrakirti when we had the pure motivation and prayed for the right answer in the debate while Chenrezig appeared to Chandragomi when he had the pure intention to help people through his book.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram dreadfish ji :namaste

Yeah, I just took the appearance of Chenrezig to be a story element to illustrate the value of pure intention. Chenrezig appeared to Chandrakirti when we had the pure motivation and prayed for the right answer in the debate while Chenrezig appeared to Chandragomi when he had the pure intention to help people through his book.

sorry it is a little confusing there is quick reference here to two particular incidences

first chandragomins refuge in his meditational deity chenreizig ,

the secondly chenreizig's apperance infront of chandragomin telling him that allthough chandrakriti's book was good , that his would be of more benifit , ....

although both these stories draw us to reflect upon chandragomin's humility , the point which I am trying to make by posting this story is that it is second nature amongst tibetan layity and amongst the lamas to accept the Appearance of deitys , ...

there is also more to the first story allthough I could not find reference to it in the internet that I could quote , ....

we were told the same story , chandragomin and chandrakriti were fond of debating , however chandrakriti became a little suspicious of chandragomin as he was often unable to give an imidiate reply but that he would go away and meditate upon the question , however when he did so he allways came back with the most perfect answers . chandrakriti began to wonder how he was acheiving these answers so went at night to spy on chandragomin what he saw when he peeped through the shutters was that chandragomin was actualy talking to chenreizig who was manifest infront of him and was engaged in conversation as would a master with his student .

chandrakriti was so amazed that chandragomin was actualy able to manifest the deity infront if him and to converse with the deity that he began to petition chandragomin , saying that you must share this wonderfull occurance with others , telling chandragomin that he should carry the deity on his sholders and take him around the town , at first chandragomin was reluctant to do this but chandrakriti convinced him that it would be for the benifit of all .
chandragomin then took chenreizig and lifting him onto his sholders set of with chandrakriti to circumbulate the town chandrakriti excitedly called out to everyone telling them to come to see this miracle , but as they walked the streets everyone began to laugh and point and shout at chandragomin and chandrakriti ...'' why are you carrying a dead dog ? '' ... only one person out of all that lined the streets that was pure enough of heart , she was able to see the feet of the deity , and thus attained enlightenment on that very spot .


tibetan buddhism is very full of such stories , the moral being that the dissbeliving see nothing yet the faithfull deppendant on the levels of faith are able to see what the obscurations of others prohibit .

 

[DreadFish]

namaskaram dreadfish ji :namaste

tibetan buddhism is very full of such stories , the moral being that the dissbeliving see nothing yet the faithfull deppendant on the levels of faith are able to see what the obscurations of others prohibit .

Is it really a faith thing or is it a matter of the purification of mental imprints?

That reminds me of some story, I dont remember the tradition that it was attached to (it was either Tibetan or zen), in which some meditator, presumably well-known nowadays, used to sit and meditate all day in the meditation hall (yeah, it was probably a zen story ) and he used to spit in one spot off to his side while he was sitting. So, I guess something happened and he had an epiphany and a little awakening and realized that there was a deity there all along and he was always spitting on the deity.

I can't find the story anywhere, so it's description will have to remain obscure Anyway, the point is that he to perceive the deity, not because he lacked faith but, because of the purification of mental imprints. At least, that's how I remember it.

Of course, we are now talking about different traditions but, I dont think the perspective is really different in this regard from everything I have studied of Tibetan traditions.

 

[Yeshe Dondrub]

Reflection of qualities to consciousness to trigger aspects within the ego.