psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes its a bother when taken literally, again that's why it doesn't bother me, I do see the spiritual side of things, and for me it makes more sense to do so.
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Three Days and Three Nights
- Thread starter rstrats
- Start date
Yes its a bother when taken literally, again that's why it doesn't bother me, I do see the spiritual side of things, and for me it makes more sense to do so.
AlphaAlex115
Active Member
You see the spiritual side? What's it like? ?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Three Days and Three Nights
If Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon; and he was on the Cross for a couple of hours; then there is no case of his death on the Cross. Nobody dies in such a short time.
The Christian Gospels; just to link Jesus to Jonah's remaining in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights try to prove that Jesus remained in the belly of the earth for three days and three nights; the Christians try to fabricate that Jesus complete this period of three days and night.
They can probably fit a square peg in a round hole; but they cannot prove anyway that Jesus completed three days and three nights in the tomb of Joseph Arimathea.
Did he?
Regards
If Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon; and he was on the Cross for a couple of hours; then there is no case of his death on the Cross. Nobody dies in such a short time.
The Christian Gospels; just to link Jesus to Jonah's remaining in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights try to prove that Jesus remained in the belly of the earth for three days and three nights; the Christians try to fabricate that Jesus complete this period of three days and night.
They can probably fit a square peg in a round hole; but they cannot prove anyway that Jesus completed three days and three nights in the tomb of Joseph Arimathea.
Did he?
Regards
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Years ago, a Christian preacher tried to explain this on his show.
To be literal, the crucifixion would need be done on our Wednesday.
Buried before night fall, His body would lay until Saturday morning....
the Sabbath as to Jewish faith.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Alt Thinker
Older than the hills
Matthew uses the phrase three days and three nights in reference to Jonah.-
Matthew very often uses scriptural references to establish the credentials of Jesus as the Messiah. This reference to Jonah is nicely apropos since innocent Jonah was used as a sacrifice and was returned to life.
The problem with three days and three nights is that Matthew also repeatedly says that Jesus will be killed and raised to life on the third day. (Mt 16:21, 17:23, 20:19) If it is to be three full days and nights in the heart of the earth, then Jesus would be raised on the fourth day. But if the resurrection happens on the third day (possibly at night) then the third day is not a full 24 hours. If that is the case then the first day may not be a full 24 hours either.
Examples have been given elsewhere of counting the first day when tallying totals. Here is another one. Pentecost means the fiftieth day. However it is only the forty-ninth day following Easter. It is only the fiftieth day if one counts Easter as the first day.
Another alternative is that Matthew simply wanted to use Jonah to add to his arsenal of references and was not terribly concerned about the math. After all he used the Greek virgin instead of the original Hebrew young woman and had Jesus enter Jerusalem on two donkeys because Zechariah said it twice.
Matthew very often uses scriptural references to establish the credentials of Jesus as the Messiah. This reference to Jonah is nicely apropos since innocent Jonah was used as a sacrifice and was returned to life.
The problem with three days and three nights is that Matthew also repeatedly says that Jesus will be killed and raised to life on the third day. (Mt 16:21, 17:23, 20:19) If it is to be three full days and nights in the heart of the earth, then Jesus would be raised on the fourth day. But if the resurrection happens on the third day (possibly at night) then the third day is not a full 24 hours. If that is the case then the first day may not be a full 24 hours either.
Examples have been given elsewhere of counting the first day when tallying totals. Here is another one. Pentecost means the fiftieth day. However it is only the forty-ninth day following Easter. It is only the fiftieth day if one counts Easter as the first day.
Another alternative is that Matthew simply wanted to use Jonah to add to his arsenal of references and was not terribly concerned about the math. After all he used the Greek virgin instead of the original Hebrew young woman and had Jesus enter Jerusalem on two donkeys because Zechariah said it twice.
You do if you've already been beaten and scourged severely. The amount of blood loss and sheer exhaustion from just the scourging and walking to Golgotha would have been tremendous. He would have been far too tired to keep himself upright on the cross, leading to fluid buildup in the lungs and eventual death by pulmonary edema far quicker than normal.
It's a typological thing. Jonah in the belly of the whale and eventual re-emergence from there foreshadows Jesus in the tomb and eventual resurrection.
Physical evidence on a lot of stuff about most common people from 2000 years ago is hard to come by.
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Friday was day 1, Saturday was day 2, Sunday morning counted as day 3.
Alt Thinker
Older than the hills
That would be Saturday night from sundown (day 3). When the women went to the tomb at first light on Sunday, the tomb was already empty.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
The Sabbath is on Saturday.....so I've heard.
He would need be taken down before dusk on Wednesday.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom rstrats, Yeshua was entombed for a full three days and three nights just as He said His sign would be.
When you look at Jonah 2, Jonah saw how his being in the belly of the hugh fish for three days and three nights was like being in "sheol," the grave/hell. And this is what Yeshua saw concerning Himself.
The way to prove that Yeshua was three days and three nights in the tomb, is to look at the "High Day" Sabbath which ALWAYS falls the day after Passover (on the 15th day of the 1st month, the 1st Sabbath of Unleavened Bread). This is the Sabbath that they were preparing for (Jn 19:14 & 31), a special Sabbath, or HIGH Day Sabbath, and it fell from Wednesday sunset through Thursday sunset. AFTER this Sabbath, as Mark 16:1 states, the women BUY spices, and then as Luke 23:56 states, the women prepare those spices and REST on the WEEKLY Sabbath, in obedience to the commandment. It was on FRIDAY, the 16th day of the 1st month, the day AFTER the HIGH Sabbath had past that the women bought and prepared the spices and ointments after they had RETURNED as Luke says, and after preparing them, RESTED on the weekly, 7th day Sabbath (Saturday) in obedience to the commandment. This timeframe allows for three days and three nights as Yeshua went into the tomb right at sunset on Wednesday, and was rasied right at sunset on Saturday. A Friday crucifixion is deception and trying to change what really happened.
Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
Ken Brown,
re: "A Friday crucifixion is deception and trying to change what really happened."
Since you're not a sixth day of the week crucifixion advocate you probably don't know of any writing as requested in the OP.
BTW, what is there in Mark 16:1 that precludes the women from buying spices after the weekly Sabbath?
re: "A Friday crucifixion is deception and trying to change what really happened."
Since you're not a sixth day of the week crucifixion advocate you probably don't know of any writing as requested in the OP.
BTW, what is there in Mark 16:1 that precludes the women from buying spices after the weekly Sabbath?
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom rstrats, concerning the OP, are you look for something like this:
I know some will argue with this, but the Messiah was specific in giving HIS Sign (three days and three nights), and He also spake elsewhere, "are there not twelve hours in the day?" Those who want to promote the Friday crucifixion, will ignore the specifics of what Yeshua said, and try to explain His words away with idioms. Seems pretty idiotic to me.
Concerning your last question. Basically one would have to consider that after the Sabbath (Saturday evening at night) shop owners would be opening up their shops to do business, after the Sabbath had past. This just doesn't seem very likely in that time frame, as electric lighting wasn't available, and nighttime business would be "in the dark."
One needs to look at Luke's account, as the women who followed Yeshua from Galilee, RETURNED and made the spices and ointments, and THEN rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment (obviously, this would have been Friday at sunset). On the other hand, Mark is not writing from the perspective of the Weekly Sabbath when he says the women purchased the spices AFTER the Sabbath had past. His account is from the perspective of High Day Sabbath (15th day of 1st month, 1st Day of Unleavened Bread Sabbath) passing or ending, which would have been Thursday sunset. This would allow for Friday, the 16th day of the 1st month, to be AFTER the High Day Sabbath was PAST, but before the WEEKLY Sabbath had begun, making both Mark's and Luke's account work, along with giving us three days and three night of Yeshua being in the tomb. Hope this helps, and blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
Ken Brown,
　
re: "...concerning the OP, are you look for something like this:"
　
I'm afraid I'm not. I'm looking for actual writing from the first century which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specified number of days and at least a part of each one of the specified number of nights.
　
Just as an aside, though, Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and then says that an Onah doesn't have to consist of a day and a night.
　
re: "Concerning your last question. Basically one would have to consider that after the Sabbath (Saturday evening at night) shop owners would be opening up their shops to do business, after the Sabbath had past. This just doesn't seem very likely in that time frame, as electric lighting wasn't available, and nighttime business would be 'in the dark'."
But would it have been impossible? If someone dies on the Sabbath I would think there might be a need to make the burial preparations as soon after the Sabbath as possible. To that end might there not be a shop that opens to provide the necessary items in the case of Sabbath deaths? They had lamps so lighting would not be an issue.
　
re: "...concerning the OP, are you look for something like this:"
　
I'm afraid I'm not. I'm looking for actual writing from the first century which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specified number of days and at least a part of each one of the specified number of nights.
　
Just as an aside, though, Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and then says that an Onah doesn't have to consist of a day and a night.
　
re: "Concerning your last question. Basically one would have to consider that after the Sabbath (Saturday evening at night) shop owners would be opening up their shops to do business, after the Sabbath had past. This just doesn't seem very likely in that time frame, as electric lighting wasn't available, and nighttime business would be 'in the dark'."
But would it have been impossible? If someone dies on the Sabbath I would think there might be a need to make the burial preparations as soon after the Sabbath as possible. To that end might there not be a shop that opens to provide the necessary items in the case of Sabbath deaths? They had lamps so lighting would not be an issue.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom rstrats, I guess you will need to have someone else give you what you want from the OP.
So it appears you may not want to combine Mark and Luke's accounts together? Why? And have you ever researched what preparing burial spices and ointments took to make? Please consider that the women are OUT at the tomb, away from where they had come from, the sun was setting, they WATCH as the stone is rolled over the entrance to the tomb, and the Sabbath is beginning. How in the world could they according to Luke, RETURN, and then prepare the spices and ointments BEFORE they had to REST on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment? If anyone uses just a little reasoning and logic, it should be apparent that there was no possible way for Yeshua to have been put in the tomb right at sunset on Friday. There just wasn't enough time for the women to RETURN, and start a fire, boil oils, add the spices, let it simmer and then cool, and finally skim off the perfumes/ointments, and THEN rest on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment. Luke's account does not allow for all of this to happen on Friday at sunset, and the only way to explain this is for Yeshua to have been put in the tomb right at sunset on Wednesday, as the High Day Sabbath was beginning, and then on FRIDAY, after this Sabbath had past or elapsed, the women go out and purchase the ingredients, and then prepare them ALL DAY LONG, to where they had to rest for the weekly Sabbath starting Friday at sunset.
I think that looking at Mark's account needs closer examination. In Mark 16:1, Mark uses the singular form of the Greek word for Sabbath, and does not use the definite article. This indicates that Mark is saying a Sabbath is past or elapsing. But in Mark 16:2, Mark uses the Greek word, with the definite article, for the word translated "first," and this word simple means "one." Also in this verse, Mark uses the PLURAL form of the word for Sabbath(s), with the definite article here also. Try to follow this. In verse 1, a Sabbath has past, and the women go out and purchase the ingredients. In verse 2, THE One, of THE Sabbaths is mentioned. The translators have little to no understanding of what Mark is referring to, so they translate it as the "first day of the week." This is an incorrect translation, and what Mark is referring to is the COUNTING of the Omer as commanded in the Torah. Verse 2 is speaking about THE DAY One of counting to FIFTY through the SEVEN SABBATHS to Shavu'ot/Pentecost.
So the proper translation of Mark 16:1-2 should be as follows:
Please note that in verse 2 the Greek word for ONE is used, G1520, and later in verse 9, Mark uses the Greek word for FIRST, G4413, as this day was ALSO the first day of the week, the morrow after the weekly Sabbath (Saturday), THE day ONE of counting to fifty through the seven Sabbaths, as verse 2 states. What does this all show. It shows that there were TWO separate Sabbaths, a Sabbath for the High Day, and the WEEKLY Sabbath where you have on the morrow after that Sabbath, The DAY One of the counting to Shavu'ot/Pentecost through the seven Sabbaths. Hopefully this helps a little, and Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
Ken Brown,
Firstly let me say that I did not start this topic with the intention of discussing the day of the crucifixion. There are topics started by others that have been doing that. I merely am concerned with the information requested in the OP. And secondly, I think that Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21 indicate that the crucifixion could not have taken place any later than the 5th day of the week.
re: " I guess you will need to have someone else give you what you want from the OP."
That appears to be the case, especially since you are not a 6th day crucifixion advocate. However, someone new looking in who does think that the crucifixion occurred on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language, will be able to support that contention by providing the writing requested in the OP.
re: "... it appears you may not want to combine Mark and Luke's accounts together? Why?"
While these two verses do seem to make a pretty compelling case for two separate sabbaths, I was suggesting that they are not a slam dunk for a day other than the 6th day for the crucifixion--- that if the crucifixion took place on the 6th day, that the women could have worked a short while on the spices that they already had before the seventh day Sabbath began, rested on the seventh day Sabbath, and after it ended, immediately gone out and bought more spices to finish their preparations.
re: "... have you ever researched what preparing burial spices and ointments took to make?"
No I haven't. But of course I will now have to do that based on your comments regarding the issue.
Firstly let me say that I did not start this topic with the intention of discussing the day of the crucifixion. There are topics started by others that have been doing that. I merely am concerned with the information requested in the OP. And secondly, I think that Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21 indicate that the crucifixion could not have taken place any later than the 5th day of the week.
re: " I guess you will need to have someone else give you what you want from the OP."
That appears to be the case, especially since you are not a 6th day crucifixion advocate. However, someone new looking in who does think that the crucifixion occurred on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language, will be able to support that contention by providing the writing requested in the OP.
re: "... it appears you may not want to combine Mark and Luke's accounts together? Why?"
While these two verses do seem to make a pretty compelling case for two separate sabbaths, I was suggesting that they are not a slam dunk for a day other than the 6th day for the crucifixion--- that if the crucifixion took place on the 6th day, that the women could have worked a short while on the spices that they already had before the seventh day Sabbath began, rested on the seventh day Sabbath, and after it ended, immediately gone out and bought more spices to finish their preparations.
re: "... have you ever researched what preparing burial spices and ointments took to make?"
No I haven't. But of course I will now have to do that based on your comments regarding the issue.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom rstrats, I will go ahead and let you keep this thread on topic, as you desire, but I would like to address Luke 24:21 before I leave.
Luke 24:21 appears to be a slam dunk in saying that Sunday was the third day, but it is far from that. The translators basically had a bias in translating this verse to follow their preconceived idea that Sunday was the third day. Sunday was not the third day, but rather the fourth day, and it is very easy to see once it has been expounded to you. It all hinges on the Greek word G71 (ago) that the translators ignored, and inserted an "is" instead of what this word truly means, "to lead away."
Here is that same word used by Luke in the previous chapter:
When Luke 24:21 is properly translated, it should be rendered thusly:
These two disciples were downcast, they were sad because THAT DAY was LEADING AWAY the third day, the third day had already come and gone as that Sunday (today) was leading the third day away (the previous day, the Sabbath). If they were saying that "today IS the third day," why be so sad, as there was yet time for their hope to come true?
So rstrats, don't let the mistranslation of Luke 24:21 keep you from properly understanding three days and three nights. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.