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Thousands of Animals Slaughtered?

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
One should go for humane animal raising methods, but I see no reason for the population in general to move away from what is our normal diet.

This is the whole crux though. Humane methods AND 8 billion people doesn't happen, won't happen (to keep prices of the flesh low) and probably can't happen. Aside from that, other reasons are excessive land use (+ ongoing destruction of habitats in order to provide grazing for farm animals, which in turn is driving species to extinction) and also the industry is a major contributor to global warming. All major reasons for this omnivorous species to make changes imo.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
It seems RF is a veritable hotbed of fallacies,140 references to them in your last 250 posts.

Logical fallacy, "Irrelevant Conclusion" and/or "Red Herring".

Your statement has no relevance to either proving any claim you made nor disproving my claims.

I think you're trying to distract from the fact that your claim was disproven, and you don't have a valid counter argument, but you don't want to just be humble and admit you were wrong either.

Thankfully, no actual fallacies in your posts.

You certainly haven't been able to find one, despite several failed attempts to do so.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Logical fallacy, "Argument by Assertion".
Merely asserting that my claims are not falsifiable, or that I need numbers to support my claims, doesn't prove it's true just because you assert it is.

I'm now convinced that this "argument by assertion" habit of yours demonstrates that you're not debating in good faith.

It's too bad really, because I think there are some germs of truth in your perspectives, ah well.

ciao
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
You see people riven with fallacies, whereas you are not it seems.

Check the mirror.

Don't bother with the fallacy category.

Logical fallacy, Ad Hominem.

Unable to counter the fact that your claim was disproven, you can only turn to personal attacks.

Unless you can demonstrate why any of my refutations of your claims were in error, or why any of your accusations against me are true, you're just committing a baseless Ad Hominem.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I'm now convinced that this "argument by assertion" habit of yours demonstrates that you're not debating in good faith.

You being convinced of something doesn't prove it's true. You couldn't provide a single valid argument in support of your claim if you tried. You can't show that any of my arguments and conclusions are invalid or untrue, or give any valid reason why you would have reason to believe there are wrong motives behind those arguments.

Which makes you again guilty of the logical fallacy of "Argument by Assertion".

You also either don't understand what "Not debating in good faith" means or you are intentionally misusing that phrase.
Good faith - Wikipedia

To fall within the proper definition of not debating in good faith would require that someone be intentionally dishonest, intentionally and knowingly try to argue using fallacious logic, or to not have the goal of arguing in support of the truth.

You cannot even demonstrate that anything I said was untrue, fallacious, much less could you demonstrate anything I did was not with right motives.

Your accusation is entirely baseless, unsupported, and factually untrue. And the reason you only present it as an unsupported assertion fallacy is because you can't provide facts and argumentation to back it up, because it isn't true, and nothing I posted would lend support to your accusation.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Rise - if you say so ;)

p.s. Actually, you might have some fun in the philosophy forum. It could be interesting to take your proclivities to extremes. But in the rest of the forums, your seemingly obsessive need for rigor from others but not for yourself, and your extreme pedantry is just uncalled for, and WAY over the top.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
But in the rest of the forums, your seemingly obsessive need for rigor from others but not for yourself,

Logical fallacy, "Argument by Assertion", and by extension "Ad Hominem".

Merely claiming that I apply a standard to others that I don't apply to myself doesn't make it true just because you assert it is true.

You would not be capable of producing a single example to back up your claim, because your claim is false.

Which then just makes your accusation an Ad Hominem distraction from the fact that you have no valid counter argument to offer.

and your extreme pedantry is just uncalled for, and WAY over the top.

Logical fallacy, "Argument by Assertion".
Merely claiming that my arguments are unnecessary or unwarranted doesn't make it true just because you assert it is true.

You would not be capable of giving a single logical reason to justify your claim.

Because in order for you to even try to argue that anything I've said is unjustified, you'd need to be able to establish:

1. Why you feel entitled to make arguments that aren't founded in valid logic.

2. Why you feel entitled for others to accept these as valid arguments and respond to them as though they were.

3. Why you feel entitled to merely assert things are true, without proving they are true.

4. Why you feel entitled to expect others to accept that your assertions are true without proof, and then to treat your assertions as though they are true without question.

5. Why you think this represents a valid or productive way of debating an issue and a useful way at arriving at truth.

You won't be able to successfully justify your approach towards debate.

It's actually ironic, and hypocritical, what you're trying to do. Because you're trying to claim I'm somehow out of line for rightly pointing out the flaws in your arguments that you try to use to disprove what I said - never realizing the inherently bad and dishonest behavior you are engaging in by:
a) Accusing me of things I never did without valid reason.
b) Claiming I said things I never did. Then refusing to back up your claim when challenged.
c) Trying to say I'm wrong without being willing to give any valid reasons why.
d) Expecting me to accept what you say is true without question.

Your behavior is out of line with proper honest discourse and debate. If anything, it is you who are guilty of what you try to falsely accuse me of.

I think it goes without saying that you can't have an honest or real debate if you reject the idea that your arguments need to be logical and you need to back up your claims with valid arguments. That is the very foundation of what makes a debate a debate, by definition.

A debate involves at it's core the process of establishing a premise, followed by a logical argument, and then a conclusion.
You cannot state conclusions without a premise and argument.
And you cannot make an argument that is not logically valid.

If you lack either of those two things then it's just you asserting you're right and they're wrong, never giving a valid reason for what you believe. Which is why people who engage in that kind of behavior usually always devolve into just calling people names because you're mad that someone won't treat your belief as truth just because you claim it is. Or you're mad that you aren't capable of defending your claim with valid counter points, but you don't want to humbly admit that, so you'd rather attack the other person to cover up that fact.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If you lack either of those two things then it's just you asserting you're right and they're wrong, never giving a valid reason for what you believe. Which is why people who engage in that kind of behavior usually always devolve into just calling people names because you're mad that someone won't treat your belief as truth just because you claim it is. Or you're mad that you aren't capable of defending your claim with valid counter points, but you don't want to humbly admit that, so you'd rather attack the other person to cover up that fact.

Or it could be that you're demonstrating a degree of pedantry that no one has time for. I know I don't.

Dude, we have to stand on the shoulders of giants. We cannot reconstruct all of human knowledge from whole cloth in every thread ;)
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Or it could be that you're demonstrating a degree of pedantry that no one has time for.

Logical fallacy, "Argument by Repetition"
I have already refuted that claim of yours in my previous post.

Merely repeating your refuted claim, without attempting to offer any valid counter argument, doesn't make your claim true just because you repeat it.

Dude, we have to stand on the shoulders of giants. We cannot reconstruct all of human knowledge from whole cloth in every thread ;)

Logical fallacy, "Strawman".
Nothing I have said to you requires you to do anything remotely resembling heavy intellectual lifting, much less "reconstruct all of human knowledge from whole cloth".

For example:
I said that if you insist on asserting that I have not supported my claim with sufficient data, then you must accomplish the very simple and basic task of telling me what claim exactly you think has not been sufficient supported, and why. Because, obviously, I'm not a mind reader.

You couldn't even accomplish the basic feat of telling me what claim you think I made that wasn't supported. Yet you expect me to produce an answer to a question you won't specify? What is wrong with you that you think this makes any sense, much less is an ok way to engage in an honest debate?

You can't even get to the point of attempting to justify why you think my claim wasn't properly supported because you haven't even taken the first basic step of identifying what specific claim you think needs more support.

If you think that's too much intellectual work to demand of you, then you should not attempt to engage in debate with anyone in the first place.
Stick to simply expressing your opinions AS opinions - and don't go around trying to claim your opinions are truth if you can't be bothered to articulate even the most basic of defenses in support of your claims.

You are not entitled to tell people they are wrong, or tell people you are right in opposition to what they said, without expecting to be challenged to support your claims.
You aren't entitled to have people automatically treat your opinions as truth. The onus is on you to prove your claims are true if you expect people to accept your claims as true.

You have no excuse to get all huffy and bothered when people don't accept your unsupported opinions as truth, acting like other people are the problem because they won't accept your opinion as truth without question. And to then accuse those people of not behaving right for expecting you to make valid counter arguments is the height of hypocrisy - as it is actually your behavior which is not conducive to a productive and sound debate to establish the truth of a matter (for the reasons I already outlined in the previous post).
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
Uncle, I've been gish galloped, have fun!! :)

There's two fatal problems with your claim:

1. It's not even true that I presented you with an overwhelming number of arguments. If we go back I only challenged you to do basically one thing: I challenged you to tell me what claim you think I made that needs to be supported with further data.

You had one job. Just one.
But you couldn't accomplish the most basic of feats related to supporting your accusation - which is to identify the specific claim you're trying to attack.

You don't even have an argument without that. It's a non-starter. Because identifying the claim you want to dispute is a necessary logical prerequisite before you can dispute any given claim. You can't dispute a claim you haven't first identified. It's logically impossible.

The fact that such a challenge is so overwhelming to you, that you think you're being "gish galloped" and forced to "reconstruct all of human knowledge from whole cloth", frankly says more about you and your inability to handle even the most basic of debates than it does about me.

The truth is, you couldn't do it because I had not actually made any claims that needed the kind of support you claimed. You couldn't point to it because you couldn't find it, because it didn't exist.

Rather than humbly admit you were wrong, you just double down and continue insisting I need to support a claim you won't even identify. And you refuse to listen to what should be the most basic of logic that everyone should know already: That I can't read your mind and you need to identify what claim you are trying to dispute if you expect to debate that particular claim.
The fact that I even have to explain this fact of logic to you is mind boggling.
Why do you continue to insist that I should read your mind and know what claim you're demanding more math for?


2. You are incorrecting applying the gish gallop fallacy and don't understand it's application.

Gish gallop - Wikipedia

First off, because a gish gallop involves proposing new arguments with the expectation that an opponent must deal with them all - not simply making direct counter arguments in responding to the arguments the opponent has made.
Just about every argument I have made has been directed at addressing something you have claimed or argued.
Which cannot be a gish gallop by definition because that's called the normal process of debate. Ie: You make an argument and I make a direct valid counter argument.

You cannot logically expect to be able to make many arguments and then not expect someone to offer a proper counter to each one in response. It's ironic, because that means your behavior would actually have more in common with a gish gallop. Because the purpose of that is to avoid having your individual points refuted.

So if you are not happy with the size of the response you got, then you should try narrowing down the amount of unsupported accusations and claims, and invalid arguments, you are making. Because you are not entitled to make claims and then expect to not have a response to counter them.


Second, because you can't demonstrate that any of my arguments or claims were lacking in "strength or accuracy". Which is a requirement of the gish gallop fallacy; where weak arguments are used in volume for the express purpose of hiding the fact that they have no strong argument.

You cannot demonstrate that even a single argument I have made is lacking in truth or strength of logic, much less all of them - which would be a requirement for it qualifying as a gish gallop (on top of the already mentioned requirement of it being an offensive presentation of new arguments rather than a defensive counter argument to your own invalid arguments).
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You see, Chief, what I consider sin is doing something which will disturb a peaceful society. For me, it is not dictated by a scripture or God/Allah. Basically live and let live, enjoy. Follow 'dharma', duties and engage in righteous conduct.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
You see, Chief, what I consider sin is doing something which will disturb a peaceful society. For me, it is not dictated by a scripture or God/Allah. Basically live and let live, enjoy. Follow 'dharma', duties and engage in righteous conduct.
On those terms then, I believe in sin.
 
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