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Featured Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Katzpur, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    Yawn...

    I was only talking about the "genesis" myth, no need to spaz out and spam me with a massive Christian propaganda copy and paste job.

    Besides, you're not dealing with a novice here, I've been on other Christian forums before so know all of your tactics of deceit.

    But I'll play along with your SPAM. At best all that proves is that SOME of the bible incorporated Jewish historical recordings, whoopty do!

    My main concern over the bible is that it in no way came from any "god" because it is totally devoid of even the most basic spiritual matter. Now why would any "god" have a massive book written about himself that gives no spiritual understandings at all?
     
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  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    No!

    No.

    yes

    God didn't "put" it there. It was a product of something else. I don't know what the something else was.

    You're asking US?

    He is the king. He would have been the king no matter what.

    I try to be. No really, I do!
     
    #102 savagewind, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Colossians 3:12-14, is not about God’s ego. It’s about how we treat others.
    In fact, that is a big part of worship....our actions toward others, giving people respect. You don’t think that’s spiritual?
    Galatians 5:22-23.
     
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  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @Ancient Soul ....
    My “tactics of deceit”?

    “Spaz out and spam” you?

    I think you’ll find me pretty reasonable and calm...if you’ll be.
     
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  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I think "THINK", that in pre-Judaistic history, that Adam first had a wife and she went away, Adam killed her, or God killed her or something. My thinking is muddled on the issue. Eve was supposedly the second wife.

    There is something that I have "seen" at times in women and that is Genesis 3:16. I don't precisely know the etiology of the conduct, whether it be Biblical or Anthropological but I have witnessed married women making a lot of effort to be submissive to their husbands. In the case where he is just a jerk, then that gets abandoned. So, I think that at least most women make an effort to live that out if possible. I still want to complain lots about how easily animals seem to drop their babies and women often struggle so much. :(
     
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  6. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    How would someone who has no knowledge of Good and Evil distinguish between obedience and disobedience? They wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless they have eaten from the tree.

    You would think some knowledge of Good and Evil would be a prerequisite in order for Adam and Eve to even comply with the instructions from God.

    It would lead someone to think in reading the account that Adam had already had knowledge of Good and Evil for which the tree wasn't really a tree of Good and Evil at the start, but rather an ordinary tree set in the garden with symbolic implications that they should not eat of it , rather than imbued with any actual knowledge because Adam and Eve would need to have possessed that knowledge which would seem to be a requirement first, in order to obey God's instructions. That would however negate the tree having any real type of imbued power.

    I think people would reasonably think from reading the story that you can't really do good and evil much less being accountable and suffering consequences unless you already know what good and evil is from the start.
     
  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Now you're gettin' somewhere. The tree was just an ordinary tree in the garden with symbolic meaning rather than imbued with any actual knowledge. Since it was a beautiful tree it's thought by modern day scholars to likely have been the pomegranate tree. But no one knows.

    It represented their taking it upon themselves to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad, challenging their creator's sovereignty. That's why they became ashamed of being naked. There was nothing to be ashamed about that, that is the way they were created. The knowledge was an intimate knowledge, to experience what it was like to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad.

    Let me show you another place in the Bible where this sort of use of the word knowledge is used.

    Read Genesis 19:4-5. There, in the KJV, the men of the city want to "get to know" the angels who were visiting with Lot. Well, that don't sound so bad, does it? Except that in the old days this term applied in this context meant literally to get to intimately experience the angels. Now, hold on, that don't sound so nice. Let's check that translation.

    The NIV says have sex with them where the KJV said get to know them. (Link)

    Now do you get it?

    Which they did know because God had told them, and there was no other "good and bad" that they needed to familiarize themselves with at that time.
     
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  8. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Genesis is an allegorical history. The 'first man' and 'original sin' ideas are allegorical.

    Unfortunately, there are some that consider them literal historical facts.
     
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  9. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    Katspur,
    You have asked some real good questions!!!
    I feel sorry for Adam and Eve,because it seems that they will not be resurrected. They were perfect, so their seems to be no excuse for rebelling against God. I feel especially sorry for Adam, because he would never have disobeyed God, and when Eve rebelled, Adam did not want to live without her, so he ate of the fruit. There is one other point to this that I think might be relavent. When God gave the Israelites the Mosaic Law Covenant, there was a very important stipulation. Adam was Eve’s head, so it could were well be that God could have forgiven Eve, if Adam had begged God in her behalf, just as a husband, in the Mosaic Law could come between a man and God by stopping a woman’s vow,if he did not approve of it. Under the Mosaic Law there was very few excuses not to obey vows. Another point in Eve’s behalf, God did not tell her not to eat of the tree, He told Adam. We can see this because Adam wanted to make sure that she did not eat of the tree, so he added that they were not to even touch the tree, Genesis 2:17, 3:1-3. If Adam had begged God,He. Ight have forgiven Eve, and both would still be alive today, since the only way they would die was to disobey God, Genesis 1:26-28. The earth was to be the home for mankind forever, Psalms 115:16, 37:29, Proverbs 2:21,22, Deuteronomy 32:4, Isaiah 45:18.
    Can you imagine how Adam felt when he saw Eve with that fruit, and knew she had eaten it?? His heart must have fell to his feet, because he knew it meant their death, because Adam could not bear the thought of living without Eve. Even though Adam had lived for years, he was still like a child in many ways, because there was not the things we have now. If you gave a little puppy to your young child, could you, in any possible way convince him, or her that you were going to take away this puppy, but you will get another one for them, that they will love just as much. Adam must have thought the same way. Adam should have trusted God more, He might have forgiven Eve, had Adam interceded for her.
    God definitely did not know that they would rebell against Him, but of course He knew they might, so He probably talked this over with Jesus, and Jesus probably said that if they did sin against God, he would give his life as a Corresponding Ransom, so their descendants would not all be lost.
    There are several reasons to believe that God did not know that Adam and Eve would rebell. If God had already knew that they would rebell, there would be no other way it could be, so it would have been God’s doing, from the first. The same can be said about all people. God has the power to look ahead, but He does not do it, because, if He did people would have the excuse, that God knew the would, so they had no choice.
    There are several places where God has written that He felt bad when things went wrong, and that He was hurt, when things happened that He did not want to happen, Genesis 6:6. When God was leading the Israelites, He was hurt, and sometimes angry, when they kept going against what He wanted, Psalms 78:37-41. If God knew they were going to do all the things against Him, why would He be sad, and hurt, and angry, when they did those things???
    If you want I will answer the other points later, I know this is long. Agape!!!
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Great reply. I always say that when we all get to Heaven, Jesus will be standing in front of the class Christianity 101 with the title "What really happened". But a great take on your part.
     
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  11. 9-18-1

    9-18-1 Active Member

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    First and foremost we must understand that the books of Moses are Hebrew mythology - that is to say, they are not literal in the sense that these books are intended to impart a literal historical event(s).

    Creation (and the life therein) is sustained by a relationship between man and woman - in synthesis this can be viewed as masculine and feminine; seed and womb; phallus and ovum etc.

    Adam and Eve are the primordial archetype(s) of this relationship which is captured in the Hebrew name translated as 'GOD': אלהים. This word is a singular composite and can be "read" many ways: when read within itself, it is a combination of 'el' (masc. GOD) and 'elah' (fem. GOD) with a plural ending ''yim': Eloh'yim. It can also be read 'el' (masc. GOD) 'ha' (of the) 'yim (fem. sea/expanse). In any rendering one always finds the principle relationship masculine has with feminine.

    It is as such Adam and Eve were made as "one being" (prior to the separation of sexes) made in the image (masc.) and likeness (fem.) of Eloh'yim.

    What most "believers" do not understand is Adam and Eve represent the two polarities present within the physical body of any/all beings: whether masculine or feminine by physical sex. In synthesis Adam refers to the brain and Eve refers to the sexual organ.

    As such, when Eve (sex) gives the fruit to Adam (brain) they fall. This is an allusion to when sexual lust controls the brain rather than the brain controlling sexual lust. It is for this reason that each individual is his/her own Adam and Eve within themselves. It thus follows that each being carries with them their own "fall".

    To export the "fall" to an historical Adam/Eve of the past is nonsense and the same pathology associated with scapegoating - everyone is responsible for his/her own handling of the two polarities, including owning the consequences related to the degree to which they themselves "fell". Similarly, to "blame" the woman (unbeknownst the woman refers to the sexual organ) results in institutions that demoralizes and/or demonizes women. Islam (and to a lesser extent, Christianity) are such institutions.

    Taking up the "cross" is an allusion to the restoration of masculine (upright beam) and feminine (horizontal beam) such that they are perfectly united and share one will (equilibrium).

    As to whether or not 'GOD' "knew" they would fall - it is not a meaningful question. It is by virtue of the fact that one is in the cycle of birth and death that he/she is in a "fallen" state. One can not achieve liberation unless he/she "learns" what it is that is binding him/her to this cycle of birth/death.

    The word used to describe this bind is Satan: written with the following letters and respective corresponding meanings:

    Shin: Expression (of)
    Tet: Bound (being)
    Nun (final): To the Nth Degree

    Shin has three vavs: corresponding to the head/heart/sex which are the three centers within which a "bind" can occur: psychological (head), emotional (heart) and/or instinctual/behavioral (sex). This is why Satan begins with shin. Nun (final) represents the same idea behind the event horizon of a black hole wherein the force is so powerful as to not be able to escape. Tet is the serpent that "binds" to its prey by squeezing it. As such 'Satan' are any/all psychological, emotional and/or behavioral "binds" that keep people in a state of suffering/death (ignorance).
     
    #111 9-18-1, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  12. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    That's the way I would have approached it myself , but then that would lead into asking an additional set of questions that God subsequently lied in saying that the tree was the tree of Good and Evil when it actually wasn't.

    Not to mention the verse saying after the fall of Man that Adam and Eve had become as they are, and cast out.
     
  13. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Wait a second......how does "given what we know about human beings and the history of earth" EQUEL that adam/eve wer not real people? You need to be rational here by answering all these questions. Rationality answers everything.

    The book of genesis is one mini book written likely by one author. Why would the author arbitrarily make adam and eve mythical people, along with there babies, right down to Noah and then all of a sudden, ABRUPTLY make noah and everyone else a real human? Lol. And you say im not rational? :cool::)

    There is nothing in the stories to indicate in its literary style that shows adam to noah are myth, but noah to everyone else is real. I mean, i dont understand why its EASY for you to believe noah and say abraham wer real, but its HARD for you to believe adam and cain wer not.

    You gotta get off that wikipidea, its suducing your mind. No wonder China censors it out :D

    Hold on for a second....how can you say in the same breath that the bible is embellished in spots then say its holy?

    Job didnt exist either? God is mentioned in the book, does this mean God is myth too? Mayby God is a parable in himself, huh? :p

    "Probably"? It sounds like wikipidea is confusing you. Like paul says "who has bewitched you?".

    Im sure if you wanted to fish for contradictions you could read them into anything.

    Actually, the sower on different soils is not a mythical thing. Thats a very NATURAL thing to happen. So, jesus did use real down to earth stuff to compare the kingdom to.

    Personally, whatever one believes about this ITS NOT going to make them grow. If i believe adam and eve are myth, how does that make me grow? No mental assent to any view makes anyone grow. Its how you LIVE your PRACTICAL life that makes you grow.

    So, that said, why am i debating whether adam was myth or not? 2 reasons, first its just an interesting subject and 2, it leads to other implications one way or the other if there myth or real.
     
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  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Common Sense would tell a person that God forewarn Adam about the tree of good and evil.
    Genesis 2:17

    The sin of Adams was not because Adam taken of the tree of good and evil, which Adam did not take, It was Eve who took of the tree of good and evil and then gave to Adam, it was the woman Eve who took of the tree of good and evil and not Adam.
    Genesis 3:6.

    Adams sin was because of his disobedience to God.
    Adam chosen to listen to Eve instead of God.
    It was Eve who was in the disobedience to God and not Adam.
    As for Eve she chosen to listen to the serpent instead of God.

    Adam and Eve were not the first male and female to be created.
    There's the 6 day creation of male and female.
    God created male and female on the 6 day
    Genesis 1:26-31.
    And then God rested on the 7th day
    Genesis 2:2
    And then on the 8th day God created Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:7,21
     
    #114 Faithofchristian, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  15. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    But doesn't say that. It says "the knowledge of good and bad." Genesis 2:9

    I don't understand why that would be problematic.
     
  16. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    You sure about that? Doesn't that just mean that you are a prophet of those? You can't have two masters and it seems to me that all you are doing is sacrificing truth for consensus at the least and at the worst, examination, speculation. History is always inaccurate, biology, geography, anthropology are all infants.

    And we always have, ever changing and correcting, each generation claiming it's rational beliefs true until the next generation makes a laughing stock of the former. Like fashion.

    Yes, he did. And he also said Adam and Eve were created.
     
  17. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    It problematic because the popular implication is that Adam and Eve were not privy to what exactly good and evil was suggesting they could not distinguish or identify it.

    It was until after they have eaten of the tree they then had their eyes opened and realized what good and evil was, introducing original sin for which they were cursed by God and cast out of the garden blocked by a cherubim with a flaming sword.
     
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  18. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    To me, Eve is a hero and what she did was the greatest gift to humanity. She vanished all the ''if''s and ''but''s. She vanished a fake reality that was hanging by a thread. She joined the real world and said ''bring it on''. Just for Eve, I am proud I am christian. In my opinion :)
     
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  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I believe you're oversimplifying. How did Adam and Eve know that the things they had in the Garden were "good"? Sunshine and blue sky and clear streams, all kinds of vegetation, all kinds of animal life with every kind living peacefully together, no illness, no pain, no struggles. It wasn't "good" to them. It was the norm! They had nothing with which to compare it. It sounds to me like you're just repeating something you've been told ever since you were a child, and aren't even stopping to think what you're saying.

    And if they did already know the difference between good and evil, what in the world do you think the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was even there for? Why was it called by a name that meant nothing?
     
  20. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Most christians I know hate Eve. And they see the world she gave us mundane. It's sad.
     
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