• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

gnostic

The Lost One
No, I am not. But this does not prove that there were no copies of the original documents before the 7th century BCE. Plus Moses was reciting what he knew from others, either written or verbally passed.
2nd millennium BCE clay tablets have been used in Ugarit and Megiddo that survived today, but none of the materials related to the Genesis or Exodus or Joshua (Book of) exist in this time period.

2nd millennium Megiddo had reached in zenith in the 16th century BCE, even prospered during Thutmose III taking control of the city during the mid-15th century BCE. It had fallen in c 1050 BCE, only to be occupied and resettled by Israelites.

What I find curious is that fragments of clay tablet of the Epic of Gilgamesh, but nothing in regarding to Genesis.

If a whole population of late Bronze Age people believed in the Torah, then there should be numerous copies of Genesis and Exodus, but there are none.

All you are doing is making excuses.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Do any of the writings you give reference to have dates on them?
Of course not.

Clay tablets and the places where these tablets were found, are dateable by radiocarbon (C-14) dating method.

Also many cities in the Levant and Mesopotamia were built on top of older layers, like Uruk (the biblical Erech, Genesis 10), Ugarit, Aleppo, Damascus, Megiddo, Jericho and Jerusalem. Each layers of the sites discovered, are dateable using C-14, not just of clay tablets, but also ceramic wares, bronze tools and statuette and figurines.

At Mesopotamia, clay tablets can be found archive chambers of palaces and temples. And then there are scribe schools, where students are apprenticed to become scribes.

Archives and library were found in Ugarit, where thousands of tablets were found.

Mari for instance, was important enough to exchange diplomatic letters with Bronze Age empires that existed in that time, like from Egypt, Babylon, the Hittite empire and the Mitanni, where foreign kings are known by names to have lived around that time, are found in these stone and clay tablets stored in the archives.

These names (of rulers) found in diplomatic missives can be compared to their countries of origins.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Of course not.

Clay tablets and the places where these tablets were found, are dateable by radiocarbon (C-14) dating method.

Also many cities in the Levant and Mesopotamia were built on top of older layers, like Uruk (the biblical Erech, Genesis 10), Ugarit, Aleppo, Damascus, Megiddo, Jericho and Jerusalem. Each layers of the sites discovered, are dateable using C-14, not just of clay tablets, but also ceramic wares, bronze tools and statuette and figurines.

At Mesopotamia, clay tablets can be found archive chambers of palaces and temples. And then there are scribe schools, where students are apprenticed to become scribes.

Archives and library were found in Ugarit, where thousands of tablets were found.

Mari for instance, was important enough to exchange diplomatic letters with Bronze Age empires that existed in that time, like from Egypt, Babylon, the Hittite empire and the Mitanni, where foreign kings are known by names to have lived around that time, are found in these stone and clay tablets stored in the archives.

These names (of rulers) found in diplomatic missives can be compared to their countries of origins.
Statement of Willard Libby, who began the research that led him to radiocarbon dating in 1945. He said, "You read statements in books that such and such a society or archeological site is 20,000 years old. We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is at about the time of the First Dynasty in Egypt that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.”

Willard Libby, Nobel Lecture, 12 December 1960
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Of course not.

Clay tablets and the places where these tablets were found, are dateable by radiocarbon (C-14) dating method.
...
Sometimes statements of others lead me to investigate a little further, and I see that Willard Libby, a professor of chemistry at the University of Chicago, began the research that led him to radiocarbon dating in 1945. And he said, "You read statements in books that such and such a society or archeological site is 20,000 years old. We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is at about the time of the First Dynasty in Egypt that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.” -- Nobel Lecture, 12 December 1960.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Sometimes statements of others lead me to investigate a little further, and I see that Willard Libby, a professor of chemistry at the University of Chicago, began the research that led him to radiocarbon dating in 1945. And he said, "You read statements in books that such and such a society or archeological site is 20,000 years old. We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is at about the time of the First Dynasty in Egypt that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.” -- Nobel Lecture, 12 December 1960.

Do you have the gall go suggest that dating techniques have not improved since 1960?

This falls within my area of expertise and I can assure you that major improvements have been made.

Digging up old statements to support silly superstitions is pathetic.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Adam and Eve, really Adam, cast themselves and their progeny in a bad situation. I realize Eve didn't really understand what she did, but Adam did.
I believe I am not one of their progeny exclusively. I do have one Jewish ancestor from the Netherlands c 1365 but even he was watered down by Dutch ancestry.

I believe the majority of my ancestors were Caucasian and the myths say the progenitors were aliens from the stars.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nevertheless we still can make choices and have consequences. Romans 2:12 took me a while to understand, but here it is:
" For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"

I believe that is nice but I am not under the law but am under Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hmmm Maybe I am missing something, so I'll back up a bit.

Did you answer this?

How do you understand the texts at Luke 11:49-51. and Hebrews 4:3, if foundation of the world is referring to the beginning of the earth, or before all mankind?

What I mean is, did you answer it in relation to if foundation of the world in those texts can refer to mankind or earth?

First, I would like to say that I apologize for the lateness… it has been busy.
Second, let me take it in two parts and two posts starting with Hebrews 4:3.

I am quoting the whole of the chapter because I believe context is important:

Hebrews 4:1 KJV Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Next I would like to give the definition of both “foundation” and “world” as per the Strong’s Concordance.

Foundation:
  1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
  2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
    1. of events
  3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
    1. of men appearing in public
  4. to be made, finished
    1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought, to become, be made
World:
  1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
  2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
  3. the world, the universe
  4. the circle of the earth, the earth
  5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
  6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
  7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
    1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
  8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
    1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
Taking the definitions, the answer can vary with a big “YES”, you could be right. Will not argue the point of “you are wrong” because within the context of the definitions, your point can be a valid wrong.

However,

There is a second viewpoint which I favor. I am not saying “I am right and you are wrong” but simply that people do have differing views that can still fit the narrative.

As I personally look through Chapter four, I find that the topic is about:
· Faith
· Unbelief
· The Word of God
· Rest
· Works (but what kind of works).

I want to accentuate a verse, that being “ 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword”

Here we have basically all points; The Word of God; unbelief; works (that of finding the rest); rest; and faith (because you have found rest in the word of God.)

The question would be what works is God is referring.
· Is His works the spiritual work of declaring by faith those things that be no as though they were and resting in knowing that if He said it, the process is basically finished because the natural will materialize what He said?
· Or is His works the actual working the physical until it is done.

As I read Heb 4, I find that it is more of the first than the second. If I am correct, then the foundation of the world was actually before anything was seen or created in the physical because it was created in the spiritual

HOWEVER,

If you are correct, and it is physical, then I am wrong.

But you have a great point none the less
 
I believe He is omnipotent and omniscient so He did know and did not prevent it.

Also immortal, 7 feet even. I guess it's a he so gonna go with black hair... All natural cotton fan. Doesn't like Seinfeld but a huge fan of friends. Taurus... Wait no... Gemini... That really speaks to me right now. There is not one but two.
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
No, I am not. But this does not prove that there were no copies of the original documents before the 7th century BCE. Plus Moses was reciting what he knew from others, either written or verbally passed.

Sharikind.

There are clay tablets on the Epic of Gilgamesh, found in the 2nd millennium BCE as far west as -
  • Hattusa, the capital of the Hittite empire (near modern Boğazkale),
  • in the archive of Ugarit (now called Ras Shamra),
  • in Megiddo (Tell Megiddo),
  • in Amarna, the Akhenaten’s capital of Egypt between 1346 and 1332.
If the Torah, particularly the Genesis and Exodus, was so important to the ancient Israelites, why do we not find a single trace evidences that such stories existed in the middle and late Bronze Age Canaan (2nd millennium BCE)?

Ther are more evidences today of the Epic of Gilgamesh in ancient (Bronze Age) Canaan than there are with Genesis and Exodus.

The Epic discovered at Megiddo, may be in fragments with missing pieces of tablets, but they are still evidences that the ancient Canaanites were well aware of story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishtim’s Flood.

There are no stone or clay tablets, no papyri, no parchments, no scrolls or manuscripts, no writings on walls or coffins, etc that are dated to 2nd millennium Bronze Age, concerning Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses or Joshua.

Do any of the writings you give reference to have dates on them?

Dates, no, but things like stone, clay, papyri or parchments, if they survived can be dated using various dating methods.

Radiocarbon (C-14) is only just one method of dating remains and objects. Another method is
Luminescence dating, which can tell when was the last time things were exposed to direct sunlight. Luminescence dating is one of several different techniques, but my point is that if C-14 dating and Luminescence dating give precisely the similar time, then the later method would verify the accuracy of C-14.

Often these writing materials are found with other objects, like pots, jugs, coins, bronze knives or other tools, statuette, etc, that can be dated.

My point is that archeologists would not only date the texts of material, but where they were found (eg royal archive, temple archive, tomb, scribe school, private home, etc) and objects that may be found with the texts.

Texts are often written anonymously, but when they do have of authors or even the names of copyist scribes, we can probably trace when they were from.

For instance, clay tablets of another epic, called the Epic of Atrahasis.

Atrahasis is Old Babylonian (early 2nd millennium BCE) name for the hero of the deluge, that predated Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The only name older than Atrahasis is the 3rd millennium Ziusudra, the name used in Sumerian legend.

Anyway, the epic has the scribe’s name as Ipiq-Aya, but what is important is that he stated that he copied the Epic of Atrahasis during the reign of Ammi-Saduqa (1646–1626 BCE).

“Epic of Atrahasis” said:
For the tree tablets,
Hand of Ipiq-Aya, junior scribe.
Month Ayyar […],
Year Ammi-saduqa was king.

Just a reminder that Ipiq-Aya was only a scribe, not the original author of this epic, so the original work is older than Ipiq’s copy.

Ammi-Saduqa was ruler of Babylonia from the Amorite dynasty of Babylon. His great grandfather was none other than Hammurabi (c 1810 - c 1750 BCE), who legislated set of laws, known today as the Codes of Hammurabi.

You don’t often find names of scribes, or even of authors during this millennium, but his association with a specific king does narrowed down a specific time and date.

(Source:

Stephanie Daly, Epic of Atrahasis, page 35, Myths From Mesopotamia, Oxford World’s Classics, 1991.)
 
Last edited:
Hence the difficulty in dancing.

I was saying this being was seven foot even which I thought meant implying height. Re-reading it though I guess english is a terrible language and you could have taken even to mean something else. My bad really. We are communicating in text I guess. I should take more time in picking my words. Cheers!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I was saying this being was seven foot even which I thought meant implying height. Re-reading it though I guess english is a terrible language and you could have taken even to mean something else. My bad really. We are communicating in text I guess. I should take more time in picking my words. Cheers!
Different languages have different idioms. Applying one from one's own can have embarrassing results. I knew what you meant but I could not pass up the obvious joke.
 
Different languages have different idioms. Applying one from one's own can have embarrassing results. I knew what you meant but I could not pass up the obvious joke.

I heard a related joke today: Crocks and gators can grow up to 15 feet but oddly 100% of these beasts I have never found with more then four feet.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Also immortal, 7 feet even. I guess it's a he so gonna go with black hair... All natural cotton fan. Doesn't like Seinfeld but a huge fan of friends. Taurus... Wait no... Gemini... That really speaks to me right now. There is not one but two.

I believe you are incorrect. Jesus was a Capricorn, a man of sorrows and not fair of face. I should know I am a former astrologer.
 
Top