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Featured Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Katzpur, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    As myths....
    Like Achilles, Odysseus, Aeneas, Dido...
     
  2. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    That's correct.

    A prophet has the spiritual gift of understanding and interpreting the divine will of God. That includes helping you understand the "fairy tales" (most people call them "parables" when used in the context of scripture). Jesus/God made liberal use of fairy tales (parables) to illustrate deeper spiritual truths. The Garden of Eden story is one such parable, describing how mankind is fundamentally separated from God by nature--man's nature of selfishness being diametrically opposed to God's nature of love (hate is not the opposite of love; selfishness is).

    Of course. He's the one TELLING most of the fairy tales (parables), in the New Testament.
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    With over 2 billions Christians in the world today, I think it goes without saying that there is a pretty big range of opinions concerning the events described in Genesis, and even concerning the reality of the two main characters in the first couple of chapters, Adam and Eve. I am personally undecided as to how much of the creation story and the story of Adam and Eve I take literally. I know I don't take the six-day creation literally, nor do I believe that Adam and Eve were the first two human-like creatures to have ever walked the earth. I don't believe that God grabbed a fistful of mud to create Adam or that He took a rib out of Adam's side to create Eve. But I do believe God created the earth and I do believe that there was a point at which human beings came to have a conscience, were tempted to ignore it and paid the price. I also believe in Jesus Christ as the one who was sent to atone for our sins and provide a way for us to be reconciled with our Creator.

    I was fortunate enough to have been blessed with two parents who instilled in my mind the value of asking questions, and even of doubting. I was never once made to feel like I'd done something wrong by not buying into something I heard taught at church. My parents were religious, but they also taught me and my sister to think for ourselves. My dad was a university professor who "thought" for a living. I may have ended up in the same religion I started out in, but it definitely wasn't without having asked a lot of questions and without having found myself outside of my comfort zone on many occasions.

    I know you're right, but I suspect that there is an element of truth in most of the stories we read in the Bible. I just think they were written with an entirely different audience in mind and probably got embellished quite a bit over the years.

    I once read a reply to a letter to the editor in my town's local newspaper that I cut out because it made so much sense to me. It explains my perspective better, perhaps, than I could myself. Here it is:

    In response to much of the rhetoric we have seen lately concerning creation and evolution, I don't understand why it is so difficult for some people to believe that God is the greatest scientist in the universe but that He could not explain some of His high-tech processes to people who thought a fig leaf was high tech. Even if He could show Adam the whole truth, how could Adam write that down in terms that the rest of the world would understand without a few thousand years of education?

    How do you explain to your children how a gasoline engine works or where rain comes from? Is it possible that you answer this never-ending flow of curiosity with 'not quite accurate answers' which are in terms your children will understand?

    When God told Adam that he was created from the dust in one day, is it not possible that this answer was His 'not totally accurate explanation' in terms that Adam would understand? How would you explain genetics and millenniums to a man whose first and greatest creation was disposable underwear harvested from the same tree his food was harvested from?

    God didn't just give us a body; He gave us a brain and with that, a fair share of curiosity. He knew that knowledge is an eternal progression so He gave us the tools need to eternally ask and learn the answers to all of life's questions. Line upon line and precept upon precept.

    I think it is reasonable to assume that the Creator of the laws of the universe must also by His nature live by the laws He has set for us. If not, then He would not have commanded us to 'Become as I am.' If you doubt this, then I challenge you to explain microscopic living organisms or genetic blueprints to your 5-year-old. No short cuts, though, just the science.
     
  4. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Why is it sad that its entertained? Once you make them a parable, you mize well make cain and able a parable, there children, enoch, noah and his sons, abraham, isaac, jacob, joseph. Moses too. And all the geneologies and all the rest of the stories are one big parable.

    Jesus often said "verily i tell you the TRUTH". A fairy tail is not true.

    Plus, when Jesus used parables, he used real stories to compare to the Kingdom of God. He did not use myths and stories that wer not true.
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If you grew up as a Millerite, then I'd be very surprised if you had idea what JW's believe. They are way more 'related' to Seventh Day Adventists than to us. Not much in common at all really.

    'William Miller, had said that Jesus Christ would return on October 22nd in 1844. The Millerites, as they were called, waited in their meeting places until darkness fell. Then the next day dawned, but the Lord had not come. Disillusioned, they returned home and thereafter recalled that day as the “Great Disappointment.”

    JW's have of course had their own disappointments, but never did we name a day or a date. We hoped that certain years might be the one to bring in the blessings of the Kingdom, but it was always on a wait and see basis. God has his own timetable.

    Yet, the Millerites' disappointment soon gave way to hope when a young woman named Ellen Harmon convinced a small band of Millerites that God had revealed in visions that their time calculation was right. She held that a momentous event had taken place on that day—Christ had then entered “the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.”

    More than a decade later, Adventist preacher James White (who had married Ellen Harmon) coined a phrase to describe the nature of Christ’s work since October 1844. In the Review and Herald of January 29, 1857, White said that Jesus had begun an “investigative judgment.” And this has remained a fundamental belief among some seven million who call themselves Seventh-Day Adventists.'

    Info taken from The “Investigative Judgment”—A Bible-Based Doctrine? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    I guess that depends on your definition of "fiction". The Bible is backed up by history with reference to many real geographical locations, people and national rulers of those times.

    The Bible's recommendations with regard to human behavior and morality are as beneficial today as the day they were written. That is because the Bible's truths transcend time....it is actually a book largely talking about human nature, which has not really changed at all.

    The Bible is a very candid book, recounting the good and the bad, and providing a contrast of what to do, as opposed to what not to do, and the natural consequences of both. Shielding children from the bad only conditions them for disappointment. Why do you think today's kids in the affluent West are so coddled by not only "helicopter" (hovering) parents, but "lawnmower" (clear a path in front of your children so that nothing offends them) parents who give their children a sense of entitlement but no responsibility. Everyone is so "offended" these days that they can't see how offensive their being offended is everyone else. :confused:

    No one is allowed to take their kids behind the woodshed for a good whooping nowadays for fear that they might be psychologically scarred for life. Diddums.....kids today don't have a backbone...they have a wishbone. What are we breeding? :rolleyes:

    On the contrary we put a lot of time and effort into understanding the original languages of the Bible...which is why we can so confidently disagree with Christendom's version of events. What Christ taught has been so skewed over time that if he came back today, he would not recognize the majority of those who claim him as their Lord. (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
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  6. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    I really want to re-read this a few times and I'm very torn. You shared a very personal story and I am greatful for that. It gives me a lot of insight to where you are coming from. After that you shared some random text which seems insane. My kids know how an ICE engine works but adam was expected to in his eternal life never figure it out? (Truth be told my kids are smarter than me and even though I am better at typing google searches that skill will not outlast their wit)

    That was a tale told by sexist men in ages we never existed in. We know a bit more now. That doesn't mean their words are of no value. And there are many elements of truths in all of the greatest stories. (We would surely have forgotten them if the did not) Thank you for sharing.
     
  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Okay, but, as you may have surmised, I think that is as ridiculous as you think my interpretation is. To each his own. But, trust me, you can't help me understand the parables of this God/Jesus who allegedly didn't create man but just sent him and himself out to teach these parables that were around thousands of years before he was which also, could have amounted to nothing more than the ancient superstitious people you seem to claim those illustrations were about.
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    I see the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor.

    Adam is Man, Eve is Mans Soul and the story is mans struggle with His own self.

    It is a story of how our choices direct our lives.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    If the one who created you and gave you so many good things and tells you not to do something, your conscious would bother you and as you disobey, you should know you are disobedient. You are then wrong. Doing bad.
     
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  10. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    If you have something to say then say it. I will assure you that nearly no one is going to read your divided quote thing. (Me included) Millerites were the root of the Jehovah Witnesses not how I grew up. I grew up without christmas or birthdays or blood transfusions which nearly ended my life. And no you should not be taking your kids behind a woodshed for a good whooping. I have sung the song "He says use the rod, so lets watch how walk and watch how we talk" and now I know not to be around those people. Don't beat up kids.
     
  11. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    There were only two humans alive when they sinned.
     
  12. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    Because it's not rational, given what we know about the history of the Earth and human beings. I know from our previous discussions that being irrational is no deterrent to belief for you--but I still find it sad.

    Yeah, they are.

    By the time we get to Noah, we may be talking about a real person, although the story of the flood is obviously highly embellished and impossible to interpret literally. As an instructive and cautionary tale, however, the story of Noah finds its rightful place in the Holy Bible.

    Heck, the whole book of Job is basically a combination of two separate poetic tales that teach us some things about God and man and their relationship--even though Job himself was merely a literary device.

    Most of those people probably existed.

    Well, some of the genealogies contradict, so we know they can't all be literally true. But there is some roughly accurate history in there too.

    Fairy tales illustrate truths that might be more difficult to understand if they weren't couched in familiar terms--especially those concerning spiritual matters. When Jesus told the parable of the sower, who sowed seeds on a path, on rocky ground, among the thorns, and on fertile ground, He wasn't telling a "true" story--but He was telling the truth. It's a truth that is revisited on these forums, as I sow these seeds of wisdom among you. Some are trod out by the sheer numbers of competing nonsense, some are rejected by those who are not ready to learn, and some are choked out by people who would rather do the teaching than the learning.

    I just hope that somewhere out there, some fertile ground receives them and they help someone grow.

    Um, yeah, He did. That's what a parable is. See the parable of the sower, referenced above.
     
  13. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    That may be, but only one of us is right--and all the evidence of history, biology, geography, anthropology and reason is in my corner.

    "To each his own" only applies in matters where there is room for a legitimate difference of opinion. Where evidence and reason dictate a conclusion, one is not free to hold to an irrational opinion. As rational beings, we have a responsibility to hold rational beliefs.

    I definitely trust you on that. Some are created to understand, and some are not. Jesus said, "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear!" at least six times in the Gospels--usually when delivering a truth by parable. Clearly, some don't have ears to hear them and understand their truth.
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't think it leaves anything out that its authors intended it to include. My concern is to distinguish what it says from the altogether different things which centuries later it was said to have said. In other words it deserves the respect due to any ancient document.
    The text I quoted answered that completely: God says that now A+E can distinguish good and evil, the only thing between them and God's own status is the ability to live forever, and fear that they might eat of the other fruit and attain that status motivates him to drive them out. Not too surprising, considering it's a tale from an age with different ─ some might say more primitive ─ concepts of godhood.
    I basically agree with you. The best I can make of the story is that it's a tale of childhood (innocence, nakedness, play) turning to adolescence (awareness of nakedness, sexuality) turning to adulthood (pairing, responsibility, leaving home, having to fend for yourself).
    Paul (the first Christian we meet in history, writing in the 50s) says in Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.

    That may or may not agree with what you say ─ it could be argued either way.

    It does however indicate that Paul thinks death entered the world in the Garden story, whereas I take God's stated reason for expelling them from the Garden (to stop them becoming immortal) to be clear evidence that they were always going to die.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I believe it’s a story not an actual happening. The story centres around us choosing our ways or God’s ways and the moral is that by choosing our own way over God’s loving advice we make our own hell and we have now.

    It’s symbolic of everything being fine if we follow God’s ways but going terribly wrong, like today, when we choose not to and the choice is ours.

    The serpent represents our lower self, the ego, which just wants, power, wealth and lust and to satisfy the base desires and in the world today our society reflects that our lower selves, as opposed to our spiritual selves, dominates every facet of our lives and that is reflected by misery and unhappiness everywhere.

    Whichever way we look at the story it’s telling us that our lives will be better if we follow God’s ways of love and tolerance rather than man’s of greed and selfishness.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hmmmm.....I thought I did. [​IMG]

    The "divided quote thingy" is how you address the individual points made in someone's post....as I and others are doing now.

    Charles Russell, who led the group that founded the International Bible Students (as JW"s were then known) wasn't born till 1852. And he thanked the Adventists for some of his early studies in the scriptures. No mention of Miller.

    Then it sounds like someone knew what the Bible taught and actually obeyed it.

    Can I ask how you know that not having a blood transfusion nearly ended your life? I am always interested in the details of such claims, having had many personal friends who were told by doctors that they would die without blood.....yet none of them did...not one. Having someone tell you that you will die without blood, and it actually happening, are two entirely different things. Do you know how many people die because they had blood? You won't see those stats published.

    I never have. But a wooden spoon did the trick 40 odd years ago. No entitled snowflakes back then. Kids learned what "NO" and "DON'T" meant.

    Its a bit like the law of gravity...it tells you painfully and immediately that you should not defy it. The law of the parents should be the same. I am not advocating physical violence, though a good smack on the behind never hurt anything but their pride.

    Two different songs....I haven't heard either of them in decades. Besides, we have learned through further research that the "rod" means corrective measures, which can be whatever form of discipline works for your child....time out...loss of privileges....and in Bible times and right through to the mid to late 20th century, it meant corporal punishment. No one thought it was wrong then, did they? Parents used it, schools used it.....it made kids think twice before doing the wrong thing.Times have changed.

    I never have. Child abuse is not discipline. You do understand the difference?
     
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  17. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    I think you are giving this story way too much credit.

    It was just a story taken from some pagan beliefs like all the other books in the bible, and changed like they all were, to make up the then "new" religion. And this one was most likely a "campfire" type creation story that was used to entertain the children on how their world was created. Lots of primitives have such stories.
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Well, prior to the fall, there was no ‘evil’, so there was nothing to be wary of... be cautious of. That’s why Eve wasn’t worried about a ‘talking snake’. It just made her curious.

    Today, we live in a totally different world. It’s filled w/ traps, and we especially need to be aware of those that play on our bad inclinations, our vices. Like sexual desires, etc.

    Adam & Eve had no vices! Hard to believe, but that’s part of being perfect intelligent beings, like the Angels. Not saying they couldn’t do bad things — they did, Satan too — they just weren’t inclined to do or think bad things.

    Does that help explain anything? I have a hard time writing my thoughts down.
     
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  19. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Are you open to consider otherwise?

    “The Detailed Records
    Probably no historical record has been more scoffed at than the Bible. However, the facts show that if it weren’t considered a book of religion and it had only recently been discovered by archaeologists, it would be proclaimed the most significant find in all history. For its details as to family lines, lands of occupation, life spans, and events should provide positive proof to even the most skeptical observers that its accounts are genuine and accurate, because no one would go into such minute detail if they were simply creating a forged document. Oh, they could if they wished, but that would require a high level of sophistication and some very dark motives.

    Take for example the genealogies found at Genesis 4:17-5:31, 10:1-31, 11:10-32, 14:1-8, 21:32, 22:20-24, 25:1-4 & 12-19, 26:34, 28:6-19, 36:1-4 & 9-43, 38:1-5, 46:8-27, 48:7, Numbers 1:1-42, 2:5-32, 26:12-60, and 27:1, just to start with. The details in these accounts prove the Bible to be a compilation of amazingly accurate historical details.

    Also, read the genealogies that start in First Chronicles, and you’ll find many names of ancient people who went on to found cities and countries that we’re still familiar with today. Look at the long lists of names of people, then see who their fathers were and who they descended from, the things they did, etc. – things that nobody would be interested in today – and ask why anyone would make all of this up. How could anyone fake so much detail? Also realize that each of the names actually meant something in Hebrew, so they weren’t just a jumble of sounds.

    Consider the fact that few would question the authenticity of the Tomb of King David (although the current location is questionable), since it is so well documented by known accurate historians, such as Josephus. Notice that the Gospel writer Luke wrote in the book of Acts (in Chapter 2, verse 29):
    ‘It’s good to speak to you openly about the patriarch David; for he died, was buried, and his tomb is still with us to this day.’

    Yet, many modern critics claim that David never existed! Why would anyone say such a thing when there is no proof at all that he is fictional?

    And look at the meticulous records of the people who served in the court of King David, as can be found from 1 Chronicles 23 to the end of that book. Who they were, where they were from, to whom they were related, and what their positions were, is all listed in great detail.

    Consider the well-documented historical accounts of what happened when the king of Assyria attacked Judah during the time of King Hezekiah, then compare that to the Bible’s historical details as found in account at Second Chronicles 32.

    Also, notice how well 2 Kings 23:29 narrates the history of when the Egyptian Pharaoh Necho II fought against both the Assyrian army and the Judean King JosiAh (and won), and you’ll realize that this is accurately-recorded history!

    As for Moses and the Exodus; consider the detailed record of the travels of Israel from their place of departure from Egypt until they entered the Promised Land, as found at Numbers Chapter 33. Here you’ll see that it describes every little town that they traveled past, the directions they went, how long they stayed in each place, and even the geography of the land!

    Then look at the writings of Luke (Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts) in this Bible, and click on the dozens of links that show modern documentation of the names, the cities, the titles, and even a specific home (including a picture)… such detailed and proven documentation is virtually unparalleled in any other ancient writing!

    For a fact, the Bible is a vast wealth and storehouse of the history of ancient peoples, which through ignorance and prejudice goes unexplored by many. Consider for example, the records of the peoples and the trade goods they supplied to the Mediterranean trade port of Tyre in the Seventh Century BCE, as found in the Twenty-seventh Chapter of the Bible book of Ezekiel. Where else can such valuable records be found?”


    http://www.2001translation.com/Authenticity.htm#_1
     
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  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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