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Featured Thoughts on Heaven, Hell, and the Christian/Islamic God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 21, 2018.

  1. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Is it really Intelligent to give special treatment for believers? Why is Believing so Important?

    The Reality of it all is that Heaven could not exist until one acquires enough knowledge, understanding, and wisdom to where there is no other choice but Heaven. It will take many many lifetimes to arrive at that level.

    Given enough time and lessons, everyone will arrive in Heaven. There is no need to hang onto the petty things that would make Hell possible. God is far more intelligent than that. Those who understand those petty things for what they really are,are for more intelligent as well.
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I believe that Jesus remained in the grave for treatment of his injuries on the Cross, as soon as he got recovered so he could go to Galilee, he came out of the grave met his closed followers and went there. It means that Jesus did not die on the Cross and became unconscious as he was seriously injured.
    This is what I believe with reasons and arguments, others could believe differently with or without reasons and argument, if any, please.
    Regards
     
  3. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    I have made assumptions which may not be true. The problem of humans is that they can't know the future. You don't know your own future. You don't know who you yourself will be.

    The possibilities are;

    God is the only source of good in this universe. After leaving God (as your own decision), you are on your own. You will be a sinning machine without conscience. Conscience is a set of laws embedded into humans by God. The set of laws belongs to God. He will take it back at the point of your death. Since then, one less powerful figure named Satan has all the interests in taking over you.

    Our earthly emotions such as the love of parents and kids are somehow "stored" in our spirit instead of soul. Soul is you but spirit will return back to God at the moment of your death. It is said God is love. Love also belongs to God. Without God, you are one with no conscience and no love, but under the influence and control of a powerful but fallen archangel Satan.

    You are no difference than a zombie. "Killing a dozen zombies in order to save a normal human" is the main theme of all zombie movies. God is doing the same. Saving the savable among the wanabe zombies who will in the end lose all their conscience and love.

    In an nutshell, you as a human don't have the intelligence to speculate what could possibly lying ahead. Yet you are confident about you low IQ which seems to fail in figuring things out, but subject to wrong assumptions such as the assumption that you yourself are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow while you may not be!

    Genesis 101;
    Tree of Knowledge: (under the influence of the devil) the day you choose to eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.

    Wow, what a prophecy! Humans are so predicable.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it is 'death' which makes biblical hell ( the temporary grave ) possible.
    Any other hell teaching is a religious-myth teaching often just taught as being Scripture, but is Not Scripture.
    Since ' death ' is Not a petty/small thing then we need to see an end to BIG enemy death.
    According to 1 Corinthians 15:26 the last enemy (death) will be brought to nothing.
    Isaiah looked forward to the time when death will be No more on Earth as per Isaiah 25:8.
    Since we can Nor resurrect oneself or another then we need someone who can resurrect us.
    Jesus can and will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18. He'll empty out the temporary grave/ biblical hell.

    Since only humble meek people will inherit the Earth as Jesus' promised - Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5, then one needs to choose to be humble and upright, so the Bible gives us enough knowledge (education) understanding and the wisdom to apply such information as to be righteous. Such as cultivating the fruit of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23. If a person believes in violence then that person could harm a righteous person.
    Because we are forewarned if we want to live forever ( everlasting life ) then we need to be peaceful people.
    If the humble figurative ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 are Not given special treatment then the haughty ' goats ' would end up getting rid of the sheep, and only wicked ones would be left on Earth.

    It is interesting that the ' sheep ' do not arrive at Heaven, but they can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Both Job and Jesus freely chose to serve God under adverse conditions, whereas Satan and Adam chose Not to serve God under very good conditions. So, to me No one is predicable. Satan challenges all of us at Job 2:4-5 to ' touch our flesh...' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God. Both faithful Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.

    Yes, I agree the soul is us. We are a living soul until death, then we become a dead soul or a lifeless soul.
    As far as 'one's spirit returning back to God at death' that is in the same sense as a foreclosed house 'returns' to the owner, The house does Not move or go anywhere but simply ownership of the house goes back ( returns ) to the owner. So, any future life prospect lies in God's safe hands until Resurrection Day. ( Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth ).

    Jesus taught us about the coming future at Revelation 22:2. There is No mention of the ' Tree of Knowledge ' there, but that mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' on Earth. The leaves will be for the healing of earth's nations. That is in fulfillment to God's promise to father Abraham at Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of ' healing '.
    So, through Christ we can know the future. We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as described at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40. Those who have a favorable judgement can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years when even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Baha’is do not believe in the resurrection of bodies from graves or that anyone will live forever on earth in physical bodies. We believe that after the physical body dies it remains dead and the soul takes flight to a spiritual world. That is another realm of existence, the next stage in the human journey towards God.

    I believe the Bible verses that refer to the resurrection are referring to a spiritual resurrection, rising to spiritual life, not to physical life. One is resurrected in the Day of God, when a new Manifestation of God comes to resurrect the Cause of God in every age.

    “According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

    Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

    I do not interpret the Garden of Eden story the way Christians do. I do not believe in Original Sin. This short chapter explains what I believe: 30: ADAM AND EVE

    Yes, God has us living on earth for a time, but not forever. This world is connected to the spiritual world in ways we cannot now understand, but those who have passed beyond the veil do understand. We were never meant to live in a physical world for eternity.

    I believe the following verses are referring to a spiritual resurrection, rising to spiritual life, not to physical life.

    John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

    Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus about spiritual life and spiritual death.

    “Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings, p. 213

    When the Jews failed to recognize Jesus when He came down from the heaven of the Will of God and was born from the womb of Mary, they remained spiritually dead. That is why Jesus said He was the resurrection, because He resurrected the Cause of God from what it had formerly been in the days of Moses. Now, in this new Day of God, those who have failed to recognize the return of the Christ Spirit, when it came in the Person of Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, though they are still alive in a physical body. The shout has been raised and they turned away.

    “Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.” Gleanings, pp. 41-42

    “He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

    O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
    Gleanings, p. 169
     
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  7. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Death is no more than a Change. Who decided death is an enemy?

    A multilevel classroom will always have students at different levels teaching each other.

    It has never been about ruling and controlling. That comes from mankind. God's system in this world is working.

    As I see it, your belief of a person who lived 2000 years ago coming back to rule the world will never happen. It is no more than a story that helps bind you to their beliefs. People have been preaching the end of the world since the beginning of time. It is generated from their lack of true understanding. The real truth is all around. It does not require blind believing. It stares us all in the face.
     
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  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If you notice the wording at 1 Corinthians 15:26 there it says the last ' enemy death '.......
    If death was a friend then there would have been No need for Jesus to resurrect people as he did.

    Jesus' teachings were Not based on blind believing (credulity) but based his faith on his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures. That is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written...." meaning already recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

    I can agree people have been preaching ' the end ' since who knows how long.(?)
    However, wrong guesses do Not make the Bible as wrong, but makes the wrong guesses as wrong.
    Some even preach the end of Earth, whereas it is the coming 'end of all badness on Earth'.
    You are Not alone in thinking it will never happen.
    Who can say that we are Not near the 'final phase' about a 'global or international' proclaiming about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44, just as Jesus said it would be done at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
    Plus, please note we are also nearing the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (the powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security ....." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among person's of goodwill.
     
  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    The believer perceives that God is good, and that all of mankind is bad. So when they filter their reality this way, they read their holy book and never question the motives of God in the book. And they blind themselves to the glaring inconsistency of that Gods actions. I mean why would God tell Abraham to kill Isaac in the first place? Why would God command not to kill, and then tell the israelites to kill and seize the land? It all points to blind faith, and never question that of which you dont know. And by what method should they know Gods character and heart on the matter? Why is God having humans do the work of God? And what are the logistics involved with making Noahs ark viable?

    How are all these associations and connections being drawn. Even somewhere in the bible it says to search, prove and test God to see if these things are so. Where's the first hand evidence to the non believer who searches with their whole heart, and only comes to dead silence?

    For the believer God is truly real. So i have to deduce that they experience things of themselves, and attribute it to God if its good.

    Seems like a convenient way to escape reality, judging all mankind as sinners, and then getting mercy and transformation all by the power of God. In effect fantasy becomes reality, their life experience correlates to it, and they probably never experienced love from a non believer before. And they may have been into some very wrongful things in their lives.

    So i attribute the delusion to life experience that matches the bibles analysis of mankind. And then perhaps they desire a genuine repentance. Or they just like all the benefits of belonging to a church. I dont think they are all faking it.

    They see what they want to see with rose colored glasses toward it.
     
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I believe that refers to spiritual death, death of the soul, not death of the body. Although the soul cannot literally die, one can lose his soul in the sense that Jesus said if he is spiritually dead.

    Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    So much of what Jesus said was really just a reiteration and renewal of the Hebrew scriptures, although Jesus also brought new teachings.
    I believe that “time of the end” refers to the end of an age, not the end of the world. I believe it means the end of an old religious cycle, called the Prophetic Cycle, and the beginning of a new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment. I believe the new religious cycle was ushered in in 1844 with the coming of the Bab and later Baha’u’llah.
    I believe that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ that was promised by Jesus, and that He was the Prince of Peace that ushered in Peace on Earth. In His scriptures He revealed what will be necessary for humans to build the Kingdom of God on earth.
     
  11. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus coming back will never happen simply because that is not what this world is all about.

    Is Peace really the Goal that this world exists in the first place? Of course not. That is mankind's goal.

    I asked a friend one time : What is your purpose in life. Why are you here? His answer was the same as many people would say. He said his purpose was to make an easy life for himself.

    As we look around at this world, there is evidence of great intelligence in all the physics. Would a Being capable of constructing such a place really create people just to have peace or an easy life for themselves? You just must realize Greater Intelligence exists than that.

    Finally, we are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Do we really need that old carcass resurrected with us? Of course not.

    There is so much sensory input in this physical world that it is easy to become focused only on the physical. For one to understand true reality, one must include the entire picture.

    I realize Discovery takes work. For most, it is easier to follow and accept the beliefs of others. On the other hand, so much is gained on the journey to Discovery. The Results can only be better for those Hungry Students who strive to Know rather than Blindly Believe.
     
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  12. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Most and nearly all is debatable.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if you are saying this is what you think our purpose should be. :confused:

    Personally, I see this as the primary problem in the world today. Most people only care about themselves and having an easy happy life. Sure, they care about their immediate family and their friends, but they do not care about the rest of humanity.

    Life would be so much easier for me if I did not care about humanity because I have more money than I will ever need, good health, and a nice husband. I could retire today and enjoy life in a material sense, as most people define enjoyment. But I cannot turn the clock back to before I started caring more about other people than about my personal happiness.
     
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  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    Since Revelation 22:2 talks about ' healing ' for earth's nations to me that is God's goal, so to speak.
    In other words, the 35th chapter of Isaiah is about God's purpose for the Earth ( Not man's purpose / goal ).
    What was Jesus' purpose at Luke 4:43 but to tell others about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
    Jesus instructed us to do the same at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
    Ephesians 1:12 to do all things for God's glory. In other words, daily live a moral life style.
    Jesus did Not make life easy for himself, but gave his life as a ransom for us - Matthew 20:28.
    I like how you think of being ' spiritual beings ' because our true nature should be cultivated to include producing the fruit of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23, and to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has and instructed us to have at John 13:34-35.

    Old carcass (?) I don't think any old carcass will be resurrected. Think of people who have No carcass remains.
    Those who drowned or buried at sea, or those who died in atomic bombings have No remains.
    So, there will be No carcass resurrections, but a resurrection of the person himself in a new healthy body.
    I find Jesus did Not blindly believe (credulity) but believed in God's promise about the humble meek inheriting the Earth as found at Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5.

    God's goal or purpose is found in God's promise to father Abraham at Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefits of ' healing ' as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 when mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations which includes the entire beautiful paradisical picture.
    That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come!
    Come and bring those good conditions to Earth as outlined in Scripture for us - Isaiah 35.
     
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  15. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    My low IQ? Lol, you make me laugh buddy.
     
  16. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Please, don't turn that clock back. That goal of having no more than an easy life is a very narrow and shallow view.

    Mankind does carry such a narrow view. In fact after my friend stated his purpose in life to me, he realized how silly it sounded. Even though it sounded silly, it's sad that this is what most people believe their goal in life is.

    In reality, life isn't about easy. After all, very few things worthwhile in life do come easy. The struggle to learn, grow and acquire knowledge will bring rewards.

    Happiness is no more than a Choice. One can care for others and never miss a moment of Happiness. In fact, helping, fixing, or bringing light into the lives of others can create Great Joy for everyone.
     
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  17. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    your quote: So, there will be No carcass resurrections, but a resurrection of the person himself in a new healthy body. My answer: You do not understand. A carcass is the human body. It has too many limitations. I understand the need and the reasons for limitations in this world, however one will not be dragging it around for eternity. Your statement shows me your view is of the physical rather than the Spiritual.

    You place so much importance on books written by mankind. You proclaim Jesus as God yet Jesus did not write any books for you to blindly follow. Some might say these writings were inspired by God, however mankind is the one telling you this. AS I see it, the petty things that holy book values only proves that it does not come from God yet you follow it blindly.

    How does one learn about another? One can read about them, however so often things written are not true. A writer's goal is to keep the reader interested. If the story is not good, no one will read the book.

    One can learn the most by watching and understanding the actions of others. Having acted, the action can not be altered by anyone. It can be misunderstood, however with further study one can understand and acquire the real truth behind it all.

    As I see it. in this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. God hides nothing and these actions can not be altered by the beliefs of mankind. When one understands the actions of God, the picture clears from mankind's view. Everything about God adds up completely and there is Genius behind it all.

    How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? All the secrets of the universe and God stare us all in the face. Perhaps, it is a Test of Intelligence. Who can see? Who can Discover? There are Great rewards in Discovering Truth and Knowledge, however Discovery takes Work and all too often it is easier for people to blindly follow beliefs rather than venturing into undiscovered country to find the Real Truth.

    I realized you have been convinced this world is a mess in need of saving. These are just beliefs sewn into you for a long time. I too was brainwashed to believe this from an early age. On the other hand, after becoming an adult I took the effort to Discover the Truth for myself. As I see it, in Reality, This world is a Masterpiece!! In fact, if I were God, I would make it the very same way. Look beyond the surface to Discover what its all about.
     
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  18. The magical volleyball

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    If heaven and hell are real I want to go to hell. If my life has taught me anything it's that the purpose of life is to adapt and overcome any and all challenges. If hell is a place of eternal suffering and challenge, then eternal life can only be achieved in hell. If heaven is challenge and suffering free, then there is no life but at best simply existing and at worst eternal death.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying, and it would be really boring if we had nothing to do in heaven, but that is not the way it will be. That would be hell. The ones in hell are the ones who will be stuck with nothing to do except try to get out. In heaven there will be the same challenges we have here, except it will be easier since we won't have the challenges of the material existence, such as earning a living and getting sick, stuff like that. But we will still have stuff to do. :D

    Heaven will be free of suffering, but there will still be challenges. Challenges don't always require suffering.
     
  20. The magical volleyball

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    What challenges do you think there would be for eternity? What purpose do you think there would be in fulfillment of those challenges?

    I think religious people miss the fact that eternal conscious life would be the worst existence. If a person cannot feel pain they will become numb to joy. If a person is unable to hate then how can they understand the power of love. If a person is unable to die then how could they possibly live.

    In every aspect of this universe their is a balance one side of a coin cannot exist and apart from the other side. So why do you think the creator of this universe would create a afterlife that is so philosophically different?
     
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