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Featured Thoughts on Heaven, Hell, and the Christian/Islamic God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 21, 2018.

  1. 1213

    1213 Active Member

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    Please notice, also that speaks about hades, not about hell. And hades is different thing than hell.
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Seeing you have no understanding, when everyone comes to the Judgement of God's and those who are judge into hell, their body and soul and hell will be destroyed in the lake of fire, wipe out as though they never existed. There will be no more remembrance of them ever again.
    Seeing that you said ( that the body dies on earth, is buried in the ground )
    Your referring to the body of flesh and blood, which when it does die, is buried in the ground, This is not the body that I'm referring to.
    You do know, When Christ Jesus returns, everyone will be changed into the spiritual body.
    This is the body in which God shall destroy with the soul in the lake of fire

    This is the body in which Christ Jesus was in reference to, saying, "Fear him, who is able to destroy both the body and soul in hell.
    This being the spiritual body and soul.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe that the same man Jesus is going to ever return to earth. I believe that the Christ has already returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah who was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth Jesus spoke of in John 14, 15, and 16.

    I do not believe that bodies will be raised from their graves and become spiritual bodies. I believe that we will get a spiritual body when our soul goes to the spiritual world. Every soul will go to the spiritual world, beleivers and nonbelievers. No soul is ever extinguished.
     
  4. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    In the Qur'an there is a passage that says that Jews and Christians that have good actions will not be put to grief. Alongside that anyone that is not a Muslim goes to hell. The Baha'i Faith explains that by saying that hell is distance from God, and that relatively speaking those who are not part of the religion are relatively in hell, they are further from God. It is all relative. The talk of hell in the Qur'an and the Bible was a way of motivating people to become part of their religion. We don't need that anymore. In fact today it turns people off.
     
    #44 Truthseeker9, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I somewhat agree, but it is hardly the OP's fault that over a billion people claim otherwise.

    Besides, to the extent that there are differences, I don't think they invalidate the OP.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I am sure others think Jesus did Not spend time in hell, but I find that out of harmony with gospel writer Luke.
    Because at Acts of the Apostles 3:23 Luke wrote that Jesus went to hell.
    Not to some ' religious-myth ' hell, but to 'biblical hell' which is the grave.
    So, since Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died, then Jesus was dead until his God resurrected him.
    Since the dead are in a sleep-like state according to Jesus at John 11:11-14
    ( which is in harmony with OT Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 and Ecclesiastes 9:5 )
    so then, while in ' biblical hell ' Jesus was in an un-conscious sleep-like state and Not a burning state.
    False clergy teach of an eternal fiery hell, whereas biblical hell is just the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In Scripture I read that Jesus was Not a Muslim, and Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
    Since Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' (John 11:11-14) then while in ' biblical hell ' Jesus was in a sleeping state.
    In other words, biblical hell is just mankind temporary grave until resurrected out of hell.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    You are Not alone as many find the Bible has No or little significance for them, otherwise they would heed the advice Jesus gives. To me, whether one finds significant or not, I still find that the good news about God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus has been proclaimed on such a vast international scale just as Jesus' recorded words said it would be done. As it is written so it is.
     
  9. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at the evidence around us. All the physics of this world add up completely. This includes many many variables, processes and systems at play. Are these the actions of High Intelligence? I would say so.

    Our actions speak as to who we are. If all the actions in physics add up perfectly so must everything about God. So far I find this to be true.

    Is Hell really an Intelligent action? Is there anyone who would say it is? If they do, isn't it just their excuse to hate?

    Religion is a creation of mankind. Creations reflect their creators. Though religion attempts to spread goodness, people also bring the petty things they hold so dear with them. They bring blame, hate, judgment, condemning, controlling, intimidating and coercing among many.

    Since the physical evidence shows Great Intelligence, one can assume God is at a much Higher Level. As I see it, God is above the petty things of mankind while mankind struggles to understand what these petty things really are. When one acquires True wisdom, one will understand all these petty things are no longer a viable choice an intelligent person can make.

    From My experience and as I see it, Hell is a creation of mankind for the sole purpose to acquire followers with the use of fear and intimidation.

    You are right to demand reason and math with everything about God. As I see it, it is the only way to Discover who God really is. God is not the one who would create a eternal fire to fry His children for eternity. As we have all witnessed God's great Intelligence all around us, we must surely realize there are better ways to deal with children.

    As I see it, Believing has never ever been important to God, That is not what God is doing with us and this world. If you Discover what is really going on, your view of the world will change. The world is not a mess. It is a Masterpiece!!
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, I find Jesus was in the grave/hades/sheol. It is just when the King James translated hades/sheol as hell that put Jesus in hell. Not in the religious-myth hell as the world often teaches as eternal flames, but biblical hell or the grave.
    Since Jesus taught 'sleep in death' then while in the grave/hades/sheol then Jesus was in sleep-like state while dead.
    In other words, we are dealing with words from the Greek and Hebrew translated into English.
    So, what should have been ' grave ' in the King James Bible was translated as 'hell' at Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
    The false religious teaching spread about 'hell' put the flames in hell, which is Not a Bible teaching.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    What I was referring is that many people use the King James Bible and in the KJV it does say hell at Acts of the Apostles 2:27. So, when the words hades or sheol was translated into English those words became hell.
    The religious-myth teaching that hell is eternal and burning is what put the flames in biblical hell.
    Whereas biblical hell, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the dead.
    Meaning: that while Jesus was dead he was in a sleep-like state as he taught at John 11:11-14.
    Dead Jesus was unconscious until his God resurrected Jesus out of the grave/hades/sheol.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find a lot of people believe in an immortal soul, a death-proof soul, even though Scripture teaches that the soul can die and the soul can be destroyed such as found at Ezekiel 18:4,20; Acts of the Apostles 3:23; Psalms 78:50.

    I also find the executional words from Jesus' mouth as found at Isaiah 11:3-4 and Revelation 19:14-16 shows Jesus will rid the Earth of the wicked - Proverbs 2:21-22, thus the humble meek people will inherit the Earth and will have happy-and-healthy physical bodies being of sound heart and mind.
    Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations as promised at Revelation 22:2. That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation found at Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and bring the benefits of ' healing ' to earth's nations.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Very interesting observation ^ above ^ because I find it is true that false clergy ( look at the dark ages ) have often used 'their version of hell' as a 'scare tactic' in order to control the flock of God.
    Especially when the King James Bible translated the word for the grave into English as hell or hellfire, that put the flames in biblical hell. However, the Bible's hell is simply the grave for the sleeping dead.
    Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place, and Not a burning place.
    The dead know nothing -> Ecclesiastes 9:5 -> Nothing but sleep -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
    That is why Jesus taught ' sleep ' in death at John 11:11-14.
    I find Jesus is right, and the false clergy teachings are wrong.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I believe Christians have misconstrued the Bible, and the end result is a distortion of the truth about the return of Christ, the soul and the afterlife, among other things.

    Christians seem to believe that they know what certain verses in the Bible mean; but as I tell them, it is logically impossible that all of these Christians are right, because Christians disagree about what the Bible means. So who is right?

    There are several possibilities: (1) one Christian is right and everyone else who disagrees with him is wrong, or (2) one Christian is wrong and someone else is right, or (3) there is more than one meaning to many scriptures so they all have part of the truth, but nobody has all of the truth.

    How can anyone say the meaning they assign is correct and the other meanings others assign are wrong? Why do people think they are uniquely qualified to interpret the Bible? Even the early Christians did not understand the nature of Jesus, which is why they had to hold councils to decide upon the doctrines of the Church. There are too many different interpretations so nobody can say that only theirs is correct, logically speaking, because they cannot prove that it is correct. As such, it is just their personal opinion that they are right and others are wrong.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Wow, an inquiring mind wants to know.
    Early Christians would be the first-century Christians. After that developed Christendom ( so-called Christian )
    So, it is Not Christians, but Christendom that teaches the distortions.
    The first-century teaching of Jesus stand as recorded in Scripture.
    Christendom often goes by their church traditions or church customs over Scripture.
    I don't think Jesus misconstrued his teachings:
    (1) Jesus believed that Scripture is religious truth as he stated at John 17:17
    (2) Jesus based his teachings on the old Hebrew Scriptures. That is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written...." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
    So, Jesus used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings.
    (3) True, the Bible is not written ABC order as a dictionary is, but can be researched or studied by topic or subject arrangement. So, by taking one topic or subject at a time one can see the internal harmony among the many Bible writers.

    Christendom (Not Scripture) distorts soul and afterlife ( Jesus taught resurrection, and did Not teach afterlife )
    Afterlife indicates being more alive at death than before death.
    Since the soul is Not death proof / immortal then the soul can die as per Ezekiel 18:4,20; Psalms 78:50.
    The soul can be destroyed according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with that. That is what I meant to say, church traditions or church customs superseded Scripture.
    To me, afterlife just means the life that comes after this mortal life, the life of the soul after the body dies.
    I do not believe that Jesus taught resurrection of the body. When death or destruction of the soul is referred to in the Scriptures it means lack of attainment of eternal life, so in that sense the soul is lost or destroyed, but it is not literally lost or destroyed; it still exists but it is not close to God.

    Eternal life refers to a quality of life, being close to God, it does not mean living forever. I believe that all souls continue to exist forever in the spiritual world where they go after we die, but only souls that are close to God have eternal life.

    I believe that all these verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body. In my beliefs, the words soul and spirit can be used interchangeably.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


    Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, only spiritual life is important.

    Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I agree, the lust of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ) is of the world.
    The listed fruitage of God's spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) is of God.

    When Jesus said let the dead bury the dead it was to a man begging off serving Jesus.
    The man's father was Not dead or he would have been at the funeral at that moment.
    So, the man was in effect saying once his father later dies then he would follow Jesus.

    I notice you highlighted both ' eternal life ' and ' everlasting life ' and No verse saying heavenly life.
    Adam was offered everlasting life on Earth. Live forever on Earth by Not breaking God's law.
    Adam ( as a living soul - Genesis 2:7 ) could live forever ' only ' if he obeyed his Father, his God.
    At death Adam became a dead soul.
    The soul that sins dies as per Ezekiel 18:4,20.
    The soul can be destroyed as per Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
    There was No post-mortem penalty for Adam but simply ' returning ' to the dust - Genesis 3:19.
    A person can't return to where he never was before. Adam returned to where he started.
    Adam had No pre-human life, and neither do we.
    Any thoughts about Psalms 78:50 _____

    In Scripture how many people did Jesus resurrect to heaven ______
    ALL of Jesus' resurrections were physical resurrections on Earth.
    Jesus' resurrections were giving us a preview, a trailer clip, of what he will be doing on a vast global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection..... Meaning a future physical resurrection for those of John 3:13 and the humble meek who will inherit the earth ( everlasting life on Earth ) .
     
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  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Oops ! Jesus went to hell ( biblical hell ) the day he died according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
     
  19. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Nice post, @URAVIP2ME !! Matthew 25:31-40 tells us about three groups.... We have the goats which don't have Jesus' blessing; we have the sheep, which do; but we read also of another group Jesus mentions....his brothers!

    This is a good 'segue' if you will, connecting the two promised hopes we know the Bible holds out for obedient mankind.

    Take care, my brother!
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Get 'em!!
     
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