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Featured Thoughts on Heaven, Hell, and the Christian/Islamic God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 21, 2018.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Nearly all Muslims, and most Christians believe in a god that eternally tortures anyone who does not follow their faith. This means that the majority of people in the world will spend an eternity being tortured in a conscious state, according to these religions. So, according to these religions, the majority of my family and friends would end up being tortured in hell forever by a being that you claim to love and worship. How could you possibly worship and claim to love a god that would do this? This "god" that you worship sounds like an inherently evil and deranged psychopath. This is why, even if I were persuaded that your god exists (which is highly unlikely, since I find its existence to be highly improbable), I would never be able to love or worship such a god. Clearly, the only reason a Christian or Muslim believing in hell would forsake all of their unbelieving loved ones and "worship" such a monster would be out of pure cowardice. You fear going to hell more than you care about your unbelieving loved ones, so you turn your back on your unbelieving loved ones to follow the cosmic Hitler. Have fun in "heaven" with the evil Almighty Sadist that you worship. Count me out.
     
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  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I wouldn't worry about it to much. What to either Christians or Muslims actually know about God. They base most of their knowledge on some ancient tribal prophets. Even if those tribal prophets had some connection to God, it's unlikely any modern Christian or Muslim possess a good understanding of the message delivered.

    I see no good reason to accept any of their claims about God. Folks feel better, more secure about things when they "possess" the truth. This need drives most people more than any actual knowledge.
     
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  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    And why exactly Do they process that way? Seems like a city problem.
     
  4. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Which is why gnosis teaches of two different divine entities. Moses saw a god of might. Christ taught of a God of mind. One is god of flesh/soul, the other spirit. One imperfect creator, the other perfect love.

    Love gains no pleasure in torture. Love is kind. Paul told us why he left the fathers of the Jews, and was adopted by the Spirit.

    Galatians 1:
    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
    14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    The gnostics were right to eliminate things like the OT, Hebrews and Revelations as not being of the God (Father) Jesus spoke of with the Spirit within him. The whole of Galatians (and Romans) is to NOT follow the "false gospel" (orthodoxy/one god).

    There is light and there is darkness. Nothing more. You choose where you want to be (eternity?).
     
  5. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Kindly do not lump the Islamic Allah and the Christian God on the same page.
    And likewise for Christian and Islamic Jesus.

    They are not the same. And to suggest this is the case is deeply offensive.
     
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  6. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    I agree that they're not on the same page (Islam is worse, and I can provide a lot of evidence for that). But, that's a topic for a different post. Overall, they're fundamentally similar, because both Christianity and Islam teach eternal damnation of the unbeliever.
     
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  7. Enlil

    Enlil Allah's servant

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    Deeply offensive to you maybe, but considering them to be different might also be deeply offensive to some.
     
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  8. 1213

    1213 Active Member

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    That is interesting belief, if we read what the Bible tells about hell.

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matt. 10:28

    According to that, people are destroyed in hell. I don’t understand how people get the idea of eternal life in hell, when eternal life is for righteous and others have death and destruction.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23
     
  9. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Clearly, this is absolute nonsense.

    You are making the assumption that everyone in the world follows your specific line of reasoning. Reality is not your thought experiment though.
     
  10. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Can you demonstrate that it's nonsense, or is that just your opinion?
     
  11. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I've always found this to be a poor argument against certain interpretations of the classical monotheist deity. Just because something is adversarial to humans doesn't mean it isn't a divine power and/or worthy of worship. The gods are not, and are not intended to be, all sparkly rainbows, fluffy kittens, and soft pillows. Not in Paganisms, anyway - I wouldn't expect them to be all sparkly and fluffy in monotheisms either. :shrug:
     
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  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    It's a fact that saying 'clearly the only reason...' is nonsense.

    Just speak to people and you can find out yourself.
     
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  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    First of all to me it is Not ' most ' Christians, but the 'so-called Christians' of Christendom that believe eternal fire.
    Jesus forewarned that MANY would ' come in his name ' but prove false according to Matthew 7:21-23.
    So, the ' many ' are the members of Christendom which is mostly Christian in name only.
    Christendom teaches the bad go to hell, but can you think of anyone righteous going to hell ______
    According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 righteous Jesus on the day he died went to hell.
    Not gone to some religious-myth hell but to biblical hell which is the temporary grave.
    Both Jesus, and the old Hebrew Scriptures, teach un-conscious sleep in death:
    - Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14.
    That means the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day.
    So, Jesus knew while he was dead in biblical hell he would be in a sleep-like state until his God resurrected Jesus.
    If biblical hell was eternal then Jesus would still be in hell. If biblical hell was permanent No one could leave hell.
    I find according to Revelation 20:13-14 that everyone (notice every person) in biblical hell is going to be ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of biblical hell) then it is emptied-out hell that is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell.
     
  14. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    Too late.

    Act 17:30"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

    Act 17:31 "For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

    Repent or perish! (Luke 13:3)
     
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  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find when the King James Bible translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire that put the flames in hell.
    So, Matthew 10:28 is saying destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
    Gehenna as a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
    False clergy of Christendom often teach eternal fire instead of Gehenna (eternal destruction),
    or as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be 'destroyed forever'. Not burned but the wicked annihilated.
    At 2 Peter 3:9 we are all given two (2) choices to either ' repent ' or we will ' perish ' ( be destroyed ).

    So, it is true in ' biblical hell ' ( which is Not Gehenna ) people are Not destroyed.
    That is because biblical hell is mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping un-conscious dead.
    Just as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14, and found at Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
    If biblical hell was destruction then Jesus would have been destroyed because the day that Jesus died Jesus went to biblical hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 until his God resurrected righteous Jesus out of hell.
    Jesus will unlock biblical hell for the sleeping dead as per Revelation 1:18.
    Temporary biblical hell ends up empty according to Revelation 20:13-14.
    After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up' (delivered up as in meaning resurrected out of hell) then emptied-out hell is cast empty into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacant hell.
    Then, during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth then ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8. That means there will be No more hell/grave ever again.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Those haughty figurative ' goats ' go away ( Not to biblical hell but to Gehenna ) to eternal punishment.
    That 'eternal punishment' according to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is: everlasting destruction......
    That is in harmony with Psalms 92:7 which says the wicked are 'destroyed forever' ( as in annihilated ).
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The ' eternal damnation ' I find found in Scripture is 'everlasting destruction' as per 2 Thessalonians 1:9
    That is in harmony with Psalms 92:7 that the wicked are ' destroyed forever '.

    Since 'death is the price tag that sin pays' according to Romans 6:23,7 then being dead pays the price of one's sins.
    Jesus' ransom covers MANY as per Matthew 20:28. The destroyed ones are those who commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32. So, most people have Not committed that sin, so are entitled to a resurrection. A resurrection back to life during Jesus' coming 1,000-year rule over Earth. Then, after one is resurrected, what one does is what will determine one's everlasting future. Remember most or the majority of people who have lived never learned about Jesus so they will have that opportunity 'after' they are resurrected.

    Christianity does teach a ' time of separation' is coming for the living people on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33.
    Those judged as righteous figurative 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
     
  18. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    I don't think Christians truly love God. I think their love is more obsession than caring. I mean only a few of them has actually spoken to him.

    But I think he has some very human like qualities. I mean if you had the same power you would run the world how you like and if anyone disagreed with you. You would cast them in hell yourself or at the least kill them.
     
  19. 1213

    1213 Active Member

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    I think the eternal punishment is the hell, where soul and body are destroyed, as Jesus says:


    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matt. 10:28
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Active Member

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    Jesus tells there is eternal fire in hell. But it doesn’t mean person that is in hell, lives there forever, or is not destoyed.

    In that the word “hell” means hades, which is different thing than Gehenna that is also translated hell. Hades is something that is thrown into hell, in the end of this time.


    …Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 20:12-15
     
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