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Featured Those who believe there is no God live by faith

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Jan 30, 2020.

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  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    You're just repeating the same nonsense that has already been addressed.

    As I said, I don't know how to explain it any differently.

    You don't understand the burden of proof.
    You don't understand the difference between believing a claim and not believing a claim.
    You don't understand the difference between not believing a claim, and making an opposite claim.

    I don't know what else to tell you.
     
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  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. If you someone does not believe there is a God or in the existence of God it is a belief that one does not believe in God or the existence of God. I suggest you take some time to think it through. :)
     
  3. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    The object of the verb to believe
    The fact he knows for sure is the non belief not the existence
     
  4. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    That's not a claim. It's a position on a claim.

    The claim is "god exists". My position on that claim is "i don't believe it".
    And my justification for not believing it, is because the claimant has not met his burden of proof.

    Claims without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.


    That is indeed a claim.
    I don't make that claim.

    I asked you before if you understood the difference between "I don't believe X exists" and "I believe X does not exist". You said you did. The above quote, again, demonstrates that you don't.

    The claim is "god exists".
    I don't believe said claim.

    That's it.

    You can either deal with that or continue to make stuff up and argue strawmen.


    They are analogies to illustrate your logical mistake.

    The points being made apparantly went straight over your head again.

    Not believing the claim "god exists", is not a belief. It's a response to the claim "god exists".

    Just like not playing football, is not a sport.

    Perhaps you need to start thinking, full stop.
     
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  5. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    You are confusing his knowledge that he doesnt be live something with his belief that his non belief is in fact true
    Two entirely different things
     
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  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi TM, nice to see you. I have already posted on this elsewhere. I am only going on all the definition of atheism I have already provided links to in this thread. I do not know the percentages of people that are within the spectrum of beliefs within atheism and I suspect you do not know that either to claim that is the view of most athiests. I have met many here in this forum and the spectrum provided even in this thread suggests to me that most simply do not believe in God or the existence of God. Anyhow that is my view unless you have any compelling evidence to suggest otherwise. At the moment I have seen none to support your claims here but I respect your right to your view and appreciate you sharing what you believe.
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry AyJay I am not really sure what you are talking about. Go look up the definitions of atheism. Many are provided linked here if your interested.
     
  8. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    The claim is not whether he exists, the claim is I dont believe he does and that is true
    It may turn out I'm wrong but that's none of your concern as I'm not trying to convince you of non existence
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really TM you have not addressed anything shared with you in the post you are quoting from. Your just repeating yourself without addressing what I have written to you to show why I disagree with what you have posted
     
  10. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Nope and I just illustrated it again in my previous post, when you pretended that "not believing the claim that god exists", is the equivalent of claiming "god does not exist".

    It is not. No matter how much you insist that it is.


    You have shown nothing but showing that you don't understand the concept of the burden of proof or how saying "I don't believe X is true" is NOT the same as saying "I believe X is false".


    Let's have another analogy (courtesy of Matt Dilahunty) that you can dismiss with a handwave....

    Let's say there is a giant gumball machine with a bunch of gumballs in it. Nobody knows how many gumballs are in there. Now, the amount of gumballs is either even or odd. It has to be one of both, correct?

    Someone makes the claim "there are an even amount of gumballs in the machine"
    I reply with "I don't accept your claim as true". Meaning, I have no rational reason to commit to the idea that there is an even amount in it, because I have no way of assessing that. So I don't accept the claim as a true-ism.

    THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I WOULD ACCPEPT THE CLAIM THAT THERE ARE AN ODD AMOUNT OF GUMBALLS IN THE MACHINE.

    Which is what you are claiming....
    You are saying that if I don't believe the claim that god exists, it must mean that I believe god does not exist. That is simply not the case.

    Just like not believing the claim that there are an even amount of gumballs, does not mean that I believe there is an odd amount of gumballs.

    So I ask again...
    Do you understand now that saying "I don't believe X is true" is NOT the same as saying "I believe X is false"?

    I have no use for faith. And I certainly do not require it to not accept a claim that hasn't met its burden of proof.
     
  11. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    Bu in
    The fact
    that you dont understand what I'm saying and its relation to SOME one or part of one definition is not my problem
     
  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Exactly.

    And we are telling you that that is irrational.
    Why would you believe anything without sufficient evidence?

    This is why I said that faith is gullibility.
    When you believe things without sufficient evidence, you are being gullible.

    Faith is not a pathway to truth.
    I don't believe claims that require faith to be believed.

    Exactly. Gullibility. To believe because "it feels good", because "it sounds nice" (=hoped for), and all that without evidence.

    If there is no evidence, then there is no way to determine if it is based on truth.
    So really, faith is always bad, since, by your very own acknowledgement earlier in this post, faith is never based on evidence as it is what you need to accept a claim when you have no evidence.
     
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  13. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Disbelief is not a belief, by definition.
    It is exactly the opposite: and absence of belief.

    You're not making any sense at all.
     
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  14. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    "If someone does not play football, he is practicing the sport of not playing football"

    Right back at ya.
     
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Whatever way you want to say it. Your still saying you do not believe in God or in the existence of God. That is what you believe.

    Indeed your belief is that God does not exist. You do not believe God exists. Now if you believe there is no God or that God does not exist and you cannot prove your claims that God does not exist you now also have a burden of proof to prove your claims if that is what your putting forth to others.

    That is the point you have no evidence that there is no God your opinion therefore according to you can be dismissed without evidence as you cannot prove there is no God.

    I think your the one that needs to consider carefully what others are sharing with you before posting. All I see here from you is you repeating things you have said in the past without responding to the content of the posts that address your claims here. So your only being dismissive without showing why and simply repeating yourself. That is ok. I do not believe what you have posted and you of course are free to have your view which I do not believe as you have not proven anything you have claimed here. So for now I guess you have your faith and I have mine and we will have to agree to disagree :)
     
  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    As I said, if you wish to learn about our positions on the claims of theism, you should ask us and then accept what we say, instead of pretending that you know better.

    As said in the post you reply to, I've told you what my position is.

    You an either deal with my actual position, or you can continue to play semantic games and argue strawmen.

    It's upto you. If you actually wish to learn what our position is about, then accept what we say and then we can discuss our actual position.

    If on the other hand you insist on trying to tell us what our position is, as if you know better, then just say so right now and then we can stop the conversation, because then this nonsense of "yes it is , no it isn't , yes it is, no it isn't ,..." is just going to continue indefinatly. And obviously that's just a waste of valuable time.

    So what will it be? Are you ready to have an honest discussion, or are you going to continue to argue semantic strawmen?


    My compelling evidence of what my stance and position actually is, is me telling you what it is.


    I haven't made any claims.
    I have only shared my stance on the claims of theism.

    It doesn't sound like it, as you do nothing but pretend as if you know better then me what my views are.

    Don't you see how utterly and reprehensible dishonest that is?
     
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  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I repeat myself because you keep making the same mistake.

    When I tell you what my position is, the honest thing to do is to accept it, instead of trying to argue it.

    To repeat once more:

    Theism claims a god exists.
    This claim has a burden of proof.
    The burden of proof has not been met (as per your own acknowledgement since it requires "faith" to be believed).

    As a result, I don't accept the claim as true, due to no sufficient evidence.
    So I don't believe the claim "god exists"
    That makes me an atheist.

    I don't require "evidence" for that position. I don't require "faith" for that position.
    Believing the claim is what requires faith. I don't have faith. So I don't believe the claim that requires faith.


    There's nothing more to it. Deal with it.
     
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  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Why is it "absolutely false"? Why post so much garbage? You could have done it in one shot.
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I see that your inability to understand the written word is still strong. No matter how many times you repeat the same thing over and over again it does not help you. You ignored the fact that there were several definitions and chose only one. That is cherry picking an improper debating technique.
    I also see that many times you highlighted the word "falsehood". You did tell falsehoods. Let me explain your error a little more. Lying is telling a falsehood with an intent to deceive. I never said that you had the intent.
     
    #619 Subduction Zone, Feb 2, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
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  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, this is incorrect. Your reasoning appears to be only in the extremes. You are constantly forming black and white fallacies.

    You need to learn the difference between lacking a belief and believing in nonexistence.
     
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