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Featured Those who believe there is no God live by faith

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Jan 30, 2020.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Very close now :)
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your response...

    What I read from your post was that you believe that bearing false witness does not necessarily mean lying that is why I was asking you for clarity in relation to the ninth commandment and lying. If I wanted to make it something else I would not ask you for clarity. I never ignnored it I missed your earlier post there is a difference. It may be earlier I think to deal with the content of your last post but I will add it here now..

    Ok this is what I get from your post. You claim that bearing false witness is any message about your neighbore that is a false message regardless of intention, mistake or no mistake. According to the scriptures this is absolutely false. This was why I asked you earlier do you know what bearing false witness means. The Hebrew words have different meaning to the english and have a wider meaning. Let's look at them in the 9th Commandment in the next post now that we know what your definition and claims are in relation to bearing false witness.....

    To be continued ...
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    BEARING FALSE WITNESS 9th COMMANDMENT - WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

    EXODUS 20:16, You shall not BEAR FALSE (שׁקר) WITNESS against your neighbor.

    The Hebrew word used here for false H8267 שׁקר; šā·qer. The Hebrew word meaning of שׁקר; šā·qer
    means, without a cause, deceitful, falsehood feignedly, liar, lie, lying, vain thing, wrongfully; From shaqar; an untruth; by implication, a sham (often adverbial) -- without a cause, deceit(-ful), false(-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.

    The Hebrew meaning implied here is to bear false witness by intention to deceive and lie.

    Let's look at other uses of the Hebrew word שׁקר; šā·qer within the scriptures to see how it is applied in other parts of the bible and it's application. How else is it used?

    Englishman's Concordance

    šā·qer — 35 Occurrences

    Exodus 5:9
    HEB: יִשְׁע֖וּ בְּדִבְרֵי־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: no attention to FALSE words.
    KJV: therein; and let them not regard vain words.
    INT: will pay words to false

    Leviticus 6:3
    HEB: וְנִשְׁבַּ֣ע עַל־ שָׁ֑קֶר עַל־ אַחַ֗ת
    NAS: about it and sworn falsely, so that he sins
    KJV: concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any
    INT: and sworn regard falsely regard to any

    Job 13:4
    HEB: אַתֶּ֥ם טֹֽפְלֵי־ שָׁ֑קֶר רֹפְאֵ֖י אֱלִ֣ל
    NAS: But you smear with lies; You are all
    KJV: ye [are] forgers of lies, ye [are] all physicians
    INT: you smear lies physicians worthless

    Psalm 7:14
    HEB: עָ֝מָ֗ל וְיָ֣לַד שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: mischief and brings forth falsehood.
    KJV: mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
    INT: mischief and brings falsehood

    Psalm 31:18
    HEB: תֵּ֥אָלַ֗מְנָה שִׂפְתֵ֫י שָׁ֥קֶר הַדֹּבְר֖וֹת עַל־
    NAS: Let the lying lips be mute,
    KJV: Let the lying lips be put to silence;
    INT: be mute lips the lying speak against

    Psalm 38:19
    HEB: וְרַבּ֖וּ שֹׂנְאַ֣י שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: are those who hate me wrongfully.
    KJV: and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied.
    INT: and many hate wrongfully

    Psalm 63:11
    HEB: פִּ֣י דֽוֹבְרֵי־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: of those who speak lies will be stopped.
    KJV: of them that speak lies shall be stopped.
    INT: the mouths speak lies

    Psalm 109:2
    HEB: אִ֝תִּ֗י לְשׁ֣וֹן שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: against me with a lying tongue.
    KJV: against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
    INT: against tongue A lying

    Psalm 119:104
    HEB: כָּל־ אֹ֬רַח שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: I hate every false way. Nun.
    KJV: therefore I hate every false way.
    INT: every way false.

    Psalm 144:8
    HEB: וִֽ֝ימִינָ֗ם יְמִ֣ין שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: hand is a right hand of falsehood.
    KJV: [is] a right hand of falsehood.
    INT: right hand of falsehood

    Psalm 144:11
    HEB: וִֽ֝ימִינָ֗ם יְמִ֣ין שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: hand is a right hand of falsehood.
    KJV: [is] a right hand of falsehood:
    INT: right hand of falsehood

    Proverbs 6:17
    HEB: רָ֭מוֹת לְשׁ֣וֹן שָׁ֑קֶר וְ֝יָדַ֗יִם שֹׁפְכ֥וֹת
    NAS: eyes, a lying tongue,
    KJV: look, a lying tongue,
    INT: Haughty tongue A lying and hands shed

    Proverbs 6:19
    HEB: כְּ֭זָבִים עֵ֣ד שָׁ֑קֶר וּמְשַׁלֵּ֥חַ מְ֝דָנִ֗ים
    NAS: A false witness [who] utters
    KJV: A false witness [that] speaketh
    INT: lies witness A false spreads strife

    Proverbs 10:18
    HEB: שִׂ֭נְאָה שִׂפְתֵי־ שָׁ֑קֶר וּמוֹצִ֥א דִ֝בָּ֗ה
    NAS: hatred [has] lying lips,
    KJV: hatred [with] lying lips,
    INT: hatred lips lying spreads slander

    Proverbs 11:18
    HEB: עֹשֶׂ֥ה פְעֻלַּת־ שָׁ֑קֶר וְזֹרֵ֥עַ צְ֝דָקָ֗ה
    NAS: earns deceptive wages,
    KJV: worketh a deceitful work:
    INT: earns work deceptive sows righteousness

    Proverbs 12:19
    HEB: אַ֝רְגִּ֗יעָה לְשׁ֣וֹן שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: forever, But a lying tongue
    KJV: for ever: but a lying tongue
    INT: instant tongue A lying

    Proverbs 12:22
    HEB: יְ֭הוָה שִׂפְתֵי־ שָׁ֑קֶר וְעֹשֵׂ֖י אֱמוּנָ֣ה
    NAS: Lying lips are an abomination
    KJV: Lying lips [are] abomination
    INT: to the LORD lips Lying deal faithfully

    Proverbs 14:5
    HEB: כְּ֝זָבִ֗ים עֵ֣ד שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: will not lie, But a false witness
    KJV: will not lie: but a false witness
    INT: lies witness A false

    Proverbs 17:7
    HEB: לְנָדִ֥יב שְׂפַת־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: Much less are lying lips to a prince.
    KJV: not a fool: much less do lying lips
    INT: to a prince lips are lying

    Proverbs 20:17
    HEB: לָ֭אִישׁ לֶ֣חֶם שָׁ֑קֶר וְ֝אַחַ֗ר יִמָּֽלֵא־
    NAS: Bread obtained by falsehood is sweet
    KJV: Bread of deceit [is] sweet to a man;
    INT: to a man Bread falsehood afterward will be filled

    Proverbs 21:6
    HEB: א֭וֹצָרוֹת בִּלְשׁ֣וֹן שָׁ֑קֶר הֶ֥בֶל נִ֝דָּ֗ף
    NAS: of treasures by a lying tongue
    KJV: of treasures by a lying tongue
    INT: of treasures tongue A lying vapor fleeting

    Proverbs 25:14
    HEB: מִ֝תְהַלֵּ֗ל בְּמַתַּת־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: who boasts of his gifts falsely.
    KJV: boasteth himself of a false gift
    INT: boasts of his gifts falsely

    Proverbs 25:18
    HEB: בְ֝רֵעֵ֗הוּ עֵ֣ד שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: who bears false witness
    KJV: that beareth false witness
    INT: his neighbor witness false.

    Proverbs 29:12
    HEB: עַל־ דְּבַר־ שָׁ֑קֶר כָּֽל־ מְשָׁרְתָ֥יו
    NAS: pays attention to falsehood, All
    INT: and act to falsehood All his ministers

    Isaiah 57:4
    HEB: פֶ֖שַׁע זֶ֥רַע שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: of rebellion, Offspring of deceit,
    KJV: of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
    INT: of rebellion Offspring of deceit

    Isaiah 59:13
    HEB: מִלֵּ֖ב דִּבְרֵי־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: from the heart lying words.
    KJV: from the heart words of falsehood.
    INT: the heart words lying

    Jeremiah 6:13
    HEB: כֻּלּ֖וֹ עֹ֥שֶׂה שָּֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: Everyone deals falsely.
    KJV: every one dealeth falsely.
    INT: Everyone deals falsely

    Jeremiah 8:10
    HEB: כֻּלֹּ֖ה עֹ֥שֶׂה שָּֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: Everyone practices deceit.
    KJV: every one dealeth falsely.
    INT: Everyone practices deceit

    Jeremiah 28:15
    HEB: הַזֶּ֖ה עַל־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: people trust in a lie.
    KJV: to trust in a lie.
    INT: this in A lie

    Jeremiah 29:21
    HEB: לָכֶ֛ם בִּשְׁמִ֖י שָׁ֑קֶר הִנְנִ֣י ׀ נֹתֵ֣ן
    NAS: who are prophesying to you falsely in My name,
    KJV: which prophesy a lie unto you in my name;
    INT: are prophesying my name falsely behold will deliver

    Jeremiah 29:31
    HEB: אֶתְכֶ֖ם עַל־ שָֽׁקֶר׃
    NAS: him, and he has made you trust in a lie,
    KJV: him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie:
    INT: trust in A lie

    Hosea 7:1
    HEB: כִּ֥י פָעֲל֖וּ שָׁ֑קֶר וְגַנָּ֣ב יָב֔וֹא
    NAS: For they deal falsely; The thief
    KJV: for they commit falsehood; and the thief
    INT: for deal falsely the thief enters

    Micah 6:12
    HEB: וְיֹשְׁבֶ֖יהָ דִּבְּרוּ־ שָׁ֑קֶר וּלְשׁוֹנָ֖ם רְמִיָּ֥ה
    NAS: speak lies, And their tongue
    KJV: thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue
    INT: her residents speak lies and their tongue is deceitful

    Habakkuk 2:18
    HEB: מַסֵּכָ֖ה וּמ֣וֹרֶה שָּׁ֑קֶר כִּ֣י בָטַ֞ח
    NAS: a teacher of falsehood? For [its] maker
    KJV: and a teacher of lies, that the maker
    INT: it an image A teacher of lies when trusts

    As can be shown above the Hebrew word for false שָׁ֑קֶר mean intention to deceive or lie. It is used interchagable between translations to falsehood; falsely; deceive; lie and lying (intention)

    Where you seem to be confused is here. A "MISTAKE" is NOT A LIE or intention to decieve. It is a mistake and does not break God's 9th commandment as it has no intention to deceive. If someone makes a mistake like in your example than that is what it is. It is not a lie. It is a falsehood in the english definition of the word but the Hebrew definition is more defined to intention to deceive.

    Obviously a falsehood is a falsehood and if someone in error finds out that they made a mistake they need to acknowledge and own up to it and see it for what it is but until they do see their mistake that is all it is. You are were not correct in your interpretation of the scriptures again.

    Hope this was helpful :)
     
  4. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    Theism can only be the belief god exists.
     
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  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. I simply do not agree with you and have shown why. Seems you do not like it. Then again I guess you have your faith and I have mine :)
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your repsonse...
    Not at all. Try addressing the post you are responding to it is more about numbers it is about numbers evidence and probability to truth through colective witness in a single generation and all through time. I think you have missed that
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    To me, faith is a belief that does not have definitive evidence for that belief. There is also the biblical definition that christians live by as well in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is good if it is based on truth and bad if it is not.
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your response...
    Nope it is not. You will not admit it though as it shows that you are living by faith if you do not believe in God or that God does not exist. If you have no evidence for your belief you are living by faith just like those who you claim have no evidence for their belief. :)
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    But they do all agree. This is what I am indeed claiming all these people (reference to christianity) all collectively agree on common basic point in which God has revlealed himself to them personally. Yes there is some variation in regards to scripture doctrine (this is not shift in evidence) and this is not in reference to the overall basic view in common to the collective witness that God has revealed himself to these people. The disagreements are not in regards to basic belief that God has revealed himself to them but within some doctrines and interpretation of the scriptures. Not to the individuals experience or the collective. This is the point being made.

    Your response...

    I would argue that those that cannot be tested are meaningless. For example how to you test for the chances of the origin of life which is the context to what we are talking about here? I think generally though I agree with you that there is not enough evidence to simply know one way or the other but the mathamatical models provided for some things that cannot be tested for can give us an idea in regards to the correctness of our theories IMO.

    I would say according to the scriptures no one ever finds God by waiting for evidence that God exists as he is only ever revealed to those who seek him in his appointed way through faith or by believing and following his Word. The scriptures teach that it is the fool that says in his heart that there is no God so from that perspective at least you do not take this position and your opened to God which is good. If your waiting for your evidence however you will never find God as this is not how he reveals himself. He only reveals himself to those who are open and honestly seek him through prayer and his Word.

    As to your claim of buden of proof this is simply an athiest saying that I do not believe and is simply nonsense in my opinion. I accept for somethings I do not have conclusive evidence as a "christian". For example I cannot prove if a miracle has happened to me or that God has revealed himself to me but I do not need to because I know my own experience so for anyone to tell me something differently is simply folly IMO. Just as I cannot prove my experience to you and I know it is real. No one can tell prove to me through evidence that my experience is not real of that of the collective witness that is always present throughout the world since the begining of time.

    Now I can tell you about my experience but I cannot show you evidence of God so I live by faith and have become a part of a collective witness whicn is in my view evidence in and of it self but I live by faith because I have no deifnitive evidence to prove God. Yet this is no different IMO to those who claim to believe there is no God or do not believe in the existence of God both live by faith because they cannot prove or not prove God through evidence one way or nother. So to my depending on your view (in God or against) burden of proof is on both sides and IMO there is more evidence in a collective witness then those who simply claim there is no God (not speaking of you).

    Much of this is already answered in the previous section. There is no lack of evidence to the person that God has revealed himself to as this is a personal experience. There is only lack of external evidence in being able to prove God to others who do not believe the collective witness. Wheather one believes in God or does not believe in God both beliefs have a lack of evidence for their position therefore both beliefs are one of faith.

    Yes I agree with you generally here. Although I disagree at the same time in that if you have 1/3 of the worlds population and people all though time as a collective witness saying that God has revealed himself to them and that is their personal experience that is something that cannot be disproven. Yet your examples and the examples of othere here of individuals believing imaginary things cannot be applied to a collective like that which I have shared with you IMO. You cannot say that every person that believes they have had an experience in God is deluded. If you do the burden of proof is now on you to provide definitive evidence for your claims that every person in the collecive witness (1/3 of the current world population and those all through time) have been deluded in their experience, but you cannot as there is no evidence that can even deny a single persons experience which you no nothing about. So even your claims here are simply an opinion based on faith.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts Poly and nice talking to you :)
     
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Of course you disagree here as it puts the buden of proof on you to prove that there is no God in order to prove your belief. However I also strongly disagree with your claims here. Whatever way you want to spin it not believing that there is a God or that there is no existence of God is still a belief that there is no God and for that reason if you do not have evidence for this belief it is simply an opinion based on faith IMO. Even if you claim not having a belief in God it is also no evidence that there is no God either. Don't forget now the very definition of athiesm is a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. This is pretty consistent across the board ...

    ATHIESM DEFINITIONS

    Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods). (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. The etymological root for the word atheism originated before the 5th century BCE from the ancient Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)". (Wiki).

    Atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. As such, it is usually distinguished from theism, which affirms the reality of the divine and often seeks to demonstrate its existence. Atheism is also distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question whether there is a god or not, professing to find the questions unanswered or unanswerable. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

    Atheism a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods; a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods (Merriam Webster dictionary)

    Atheism the doctrine or belief that there is no God or disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. (Dictionary.com)

    Atheism The term “atheist” describes a person who does not believe that God or a divine being exists (Encyclopedia of Philisophy).

    Athiesm a'-the-iz'-m (atheos, "without God" (Ephesians 2:12)): Ordinarily this word is interpreted to mean a denial of the existence of God, a disbelief in God, the opposite of theism. (International Stantard Bible Encyclopedia)

    Athiesm the belief that God does not exist; not believing in any God or gods, or relating to such beliefs (Cambridge Dictionary)

    Athiesm the belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist godlessness (Your Dictionary)

    Someone who believes in Atheism...........?

    Atheist, a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism (Merriam Webster dictionary)

    So for this one perhaps we will agree to disagree :)
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yep I am aware that there is all versions and colors of the spectrum in relation to any belief. However there are core beliefs that are normally held in common across all view points both within religion and outside of it. The core belief of athiesm is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
     
  12. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    How would one know?
     
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  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Shad but to me that sounds more simply like a definition of an "unbeliever" (someone that does not believe) rather then an athiest which is generally defined as a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. I understand the many spectrums within this belief though and have met a variety of them here as defined in this definition. I would not say that most athiests are agnostic in my view. If they were they would simply be better off being agnostic rather than athiests. Each to their own however. Thanks for sharing your view.
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hello night912, nice to see you again. You do know right, that mostly everything in the previous posts you thought were my words were quotes from outside sources and not my own words right? They were not me posting my words. Everything you have responded to here are direct quotes in regards to athiesm all linked here to the outside sources from...

    1. Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
    2. Encyclopedia Britannica
    3. Merriam Webster dictionary
    4. Encyclopedia of Philisophy
    5. International Stantard Bible Encyclopedia
    6. Cambridge Dictionary
    7. Your Dictionary
    8. Dictionary.com
    9. Wiki

    Someone who believes in Atheism...........?
    10. Atheist Merriam Webster dictionary

    So your not responding to anything that I have written here but only to the quotes I provided from the linked sources above. Perhaps if you disagree with them you can take your views up directly with the academics who have written them. So we will have to agree to disagree in this regards but thankyou for sharing your view :)
     
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Not believing in God or the existence of God is still a belief no matter how you want to spin it. Not believing in anything is simply not believing in anything. Now if you believe that there is no God and that God does not exist then that is your belief. If you cannot prove your belief and you have no evidence that God does not exist then it is simply your opinion in which you are living by faith

    Nope. If you have no evidence for your belief that there is no God then all you have is an opinion that you cannot prove which means your opinion is simply based on faith as you cannot prove it. If you live by evidence then you should be able to prove that there is no God. Yet here you still are with no evidence and simply providing your own opinion you cannot prove.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Ayjay nice to see you again. How would one know what?
     
  17. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    Not believing in something is a FACT.
    even if god existed, the FACT remains the athiest does not believe it
     
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  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed that is their belief and for that belief they have no evidence to prove what they believe so their belief is based on faith. :)
     
  19. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    Nonsense. He doesnt have faith that he doesn't believe he knows full well he doesmt
     
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  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I'm telling you what my, and most other atheist's, position actually is.

    You can either accept that, or pretend to know better then ourselves what it is that we believe (or don't believe).

    Personally, I'm not arrogant enough to know better then someone else what goes on inside their heads.

    Atheism is not something you "believe in".

    Atheism is just the label used for someone that is not a theist.
    There are no claims in atheism, so there's nothing there to "believe".

    Theism is the claim.
    Atheism is simply when you don't believe the claim of theism.

    Exactly.

    So, not a belief.
    Not believing, is not a belief. It is the opposite.
     
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