Those contradicting Gospels!

[PruePhillip]

True.

Re "world flood"
What was the "world" to the folk back in Genesis time?

 

[PruePhillip]

Baptism crucifixion? So what?

The problem is a literal Genesis and a world flood.

The real issue isn't about whether there was a "world" flood (whatever 'world' meant back
then) or whether Eve talked with a snake - it's about whether a secular society wants to
live under the tenants and strictures of Christian teaching. Floods and talking snakes is
a subtle way of negating values the West has lived under for 2,000 years. And this is why
we have become the adulterous, drug addled, authority despising, gambling, child hating
and nihilistic society we are today.

 

[lukethethird]

Secular societies devalue religion and replace it with secularism - this was Fascism and Communism
in Europe. Secularism today doesn't mean tolerating religion, it is degenerating into intolerance. Just
ask American and European Jews.

Secular means religiously neutral wherein people of all religions live under the rule of law that does not favor one religion over another, such as in Canada and the U.S. edit-Intolerant acts of violence towards those of a given religion is considered a hate crime and punishable by law, so what is it you are trying to refute?

 

[shunyadragon]

The real issue isn't about whether there was a "world" flood (whatever 'world' meant back
then) or whether Eve talked with a snake - it's about whether a secular society wants to
live under the tenants and strictures of Christian teaching. Floods and talking snakes is
a subtle way of negating values the West has lived under for 2,000 years. And this is why
we have become the adulterous, drug addled, authority despising, gambling, child hating
and nihilistic society we are today.

Your changing the subject to dodge the bullet, and avoid the issue. Biblicaly the flood was a world flood covering the mountains, and described in the NT as a literal world flood, and Genesis being in some way a literal history. This is an ancient mythical world view and still lies at the heart of Christian beliefs, doctrine and dogma.

 

[shunyadragon]

Re "world flood"
What was the "world" to the folk back in Genesis time?

It was world flood that covered the mountains regardless of what the extent of the world was in the worldview was at the time.

 

[lukethethird]

The real issue isn't about whether there was a "world" flood (whatever 'world' meant back
then) or whether Eve talked with a snake - it's about whether a secular society wants to
live under the tenants and strictures of Christian teaching. Floods and talking snakes is
a subtle way of negating values the West has lived under for 2,000 years. And this is why
we have become the adulterous, drug addled, authority despising, gambling, child hating
and nihilistic society we are today.

Aside from the child hating, I'd say we've come a long way.

 

[oldbadger]

It depends on your religious or belief perspective. The only one I consider not remotely tenable is the belief in a the Old nor New Testament The other religious views that do not support a literal interpretation are also tenable such as that of the Baha'i Faith. Also the Jewish view of Jesus in history.

There are also non-religious perspectives that are tenable. The simple historical perspective as to who Jesus was in history as a Jewish rebel claiming to fulfill the prophesy and promote a rebellion against Rome. Was convicted as treason against Rome, and executed by crucifixion, which is the punishment of all who rebel against Rome..

There are no gospel accounts that are dead right nor dead wrong. They are the evolved accounts of the events around the life of Jesus compiled from oral traditions and some possible witness of the time, but there is no evidence that the gospels were compiled by witnesses.

None and all of the above. I do not consider the gospels first hand witnesses and it is normal for individual (not witnesses) accounts of events are not totally reliable to the point. I reject the literal reliability of all ancient accounts in the Bible and ancient scriptures and literature.

Fair enough........ so the Gospels are not the exact truth. OK.

 

[oldbadger]

In 1900 people looked forward to a new Century which would be free of religion and monarchy.
Science, reason, logic, democracy etc would reign. Like a vision from John Lennon's Imagine
song. But the contradictions in Western liberal democracy were soon apparent. And the loss of
monarchy in Russia, Spain and Germany soon led to tragedy. Instead of "religious wars" we
had "secular wars" and secular inhumanity, leading to the deaths of quarter of a million people.

Just now we are debating the gospels, written in the 1st and 2nd centuries.

Now we live in an age of nihilism, narcissism and cynicism about our ideals.

What ideals, Prue?

The contradictions are plain for all to see.

That's what we are discussing.
The contradictions in the Gospels.....

 

[oldbadger]

The women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples (Matthew 28:8).

When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others (Luke 24:9).

Mark has a different ending.

Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. (Mark 16:8)

I'll get to those verses eventually.
There will be a lot of contradictions to review, I reckon.

 

[oldbadger]

This is exactly how we would expect theologies to appear; different from one another, so kind of a moot point.

OK. So the Gospels are not the indisputable and perfect words of God.
At least we can relax about that.

 

[oldbadger]

Only an apologist would say that.

Most apologists claim the gospels to be perfect and without any contention.

So it pleased me to read that they are a bit dodgy on facts.

 

[oldbadger]

There are no contradictions per se..

Now you've spoilt it!

 

[oldbadger]

Secular societies devalue religion and replace it with secularism - this was Fascism and Communism
in Europe. Secularism today doesn't mean tolerating religion, it is degenerating into intolerance. Just
ask American and European Jews.

Secularism is not Communism nor Fascism.
It is Secularism.

A majority of people where I live are pro Secularism yet very strongly against Communism and Fascism both.

And the Gospel of John promoted Antisemitism in the strongest way! John made 'The Jews!' the enemy!

 

[oldbadger]

Secular means religiously neutral wherein people of all religions live under the rule of law that does not favor one religion over another, such as in Canada and the U.S. edit-Intolerant acts of violence towards those of a given religion is considered a hate crime and punishable by law, so what is it you are trying to refute?

We in the UK mostly also support secularism together with religious tolerance, whilst holding out against political or religious fanaticism and/or terrorism.
We do our best.

 

[PruePhillip]

Secularism is not Communism nor Fascism.
It is Secularism.

A majority of people where I live are pro Secularism yet very strongly against Communism and Fascism both.

And the Gospel of John promoted Antisemitism in the strongest way! John made 'The Jews!' the enemy!

John gave us half a dozen stories about his time with Jesus. He wasn't anti-anyone.
Secularism led to Fascism and Communism. It also led to liberal democracies too.
But I fear that liberalism in the West has run its course.
Nietzsche thought the "death of God" would lead to nihilism. Dostoyevsky thought
it would lead to totalitarianism. Both were right.

 

[PruePhillip]

We in the UK mostly also support secularism together with religious tolerance, whilst holding out against political or religious fanaticism and/or terrorism.
We do our best.

Afraid to break the news, but if the UK is like America and Australia you are already living under
creeping elements of Islam. You tolerate Sharia law for Muslims - a kind of dual law. And
blasphemy laws apply - even South Park was afraid to run an episode on Mohammed.

 

[oldbadger]

John gave us half a dozen stories about his time with Jesus. He wasn't anti-anyone.
Secularism led to Fascism and Communism. It also led to liberal democracies too.
But I fear that liberalism in the West has run its course.
Nietzsche thought the "death of God" would lead to nihilism. Dostoyevsky thought
it would lead to totalitarianism. Both were right.

No.
John turned Jesus's campaign away from a corrupt priesthood, towards 'the Jews'.
That was untrue, very untrue.

 

[oldbadger]

Afraid to break the news, but if the UK is like America and Australia you are already living under
creeping elements of Islam. You tolerate Sharia law for Muslims - a kind of dual law. And
blasphemy laws apply - even South Park was afraid to run an episode on Mohammed.

I thought you said we are becoming a secular State?
Make your mind up!

 

[oldbadger]

Afraid to break the news, but if the UK is like America and Australia you are already living under
creeping elements of Islam. You tolerate Sharia law for Muslims - a kind of dual law. And
blasphemy laws apply - even South Park was afraid to run an episode on Mohammed.

We tolerate Sharia law?
No Prue, it's just that many of our laws mirror Islamic laws.
And anybody here can attest an indictable offence,

 

[Mike.Hester]

No one can see God (or can they?)
No one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12).

No man has seen or can see [God] (1 Timothy 6:16).

But Adam and Eve saw God. So did Abraham and Moses:

The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day (Genesis 18:1).

The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend (Exodus 33:11).
.The entire bible is a contradiction to common sense and good judgement. It is nothing more than a kindergarten creation myth misunderstood by western man.