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Those baskets of scraps of food! Were they still edible?? !!

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello...... I need some help!
OK..... ok..... yeah, I need that kind of help as well, but just now I need it in connection with the Food Laws in Leviticus and the OT.

I want to find out ideas about what the disciples did with those baskets of scraps of food that they kept collecting.

For instance, could the disciples have eaten them, or handed them out to other folks to eat?
The thing is, although the food laws in Mosiac law seem to be extremely careful over cleanliness there is no actual law which says that they couldn't pick up a piece of discarded bread off the ground and just munch into it, however unlikely that action might be.

And so, if you know that they could not pick up and eat food scraps, please help.
Thankyou.... :)
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Hello...... I need some help!
OK..... ok..... yeah, I need that kind of help as well, but just now I need it in connection with the Food Laws in Leviticus and the OT.

I want to find out ideas about what the disciples did with those baskets of scraps of food that they kept collecting.

For instance, could the disciples have eaten them, or handed them out to other folks to eat?
The thing is, although the food laws in Mosiac law seem to be extremely careful over cleanliness there is no actual law which says that they couldn't pick up a piece of discarded bread off the ground and just munch into it, however unlikely that action might be.

And so, if you know that they could not pick up and eat food scraps, please help.
Thankyou.... :)
12 baskets of leftover fish and bread... Probably a great many very, very happy ducks were fed that day.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
12 baskets of leftover fish and bread... Probably a great many very, very happy ducks were fed that day.

Ha ha! :D
I tell you, if I had been a duck anywhere near Gennesaret I would have been really cautious about Galilean boatmen trying to feed me! :p

I'm just interested about such 'side-comments' in the gospels and wonder, without agenda, about possible details of such accounts.

One suggestion was made that the disciples ate the food scraps or handed them out to others, and when I questioned whether such foods might be 'unclean' it was pointed out to me that 'food picked up from the ground' was not mentioned in the laws of Moses as 'forbidden to eat'. The closest I could reach to this condition was Leviticus 11:41 which refers to creeping things on the ground, a rather weak offering.

And so I'm hoping that a quick witted member will help me, an intellectual plodder, out of this one. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
For example?
Hi.....
A whole bunch of them, but I will have to arrive home to post them all.

Do you think that a Jew in early 1st century Galilee was within Mosiac law if he picked up a half eaten fish or piece of bread and ate it? If you don't know then nobody does....:)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
For example?

Hello again.
Tumah, I've trawled through the laws of Moses for examples of great care about and with cleanliness. Imo creatures that carry infestation or (like carnivores/omnivores) accumulkate poisons definitely quality and any uncooked meats, leftover foods, etc can gather infections. There are no doubt many more, but I offer this sample. I have given chapter and verse but only given brief descriotion of the actual writings to save space.

It just amazes me how much these folks knew about protection from sickness. Quite absolutely brilliant.

Lev. 11:4 examination for unclean beasts
Lev. 11:9 examination for unclean fish
Lev. 11:11 unclean fish
Deut. 14:11 examination for unclean fowl
Lev. 11:13 unclean fowl
Lev. 11:21 examination for unclean locust
Lev. 11:41 unclean fruit worm
Ex.22:30 torn flesh
Deut. 14:21 beasts dead from sickness
Ex. 23:19 meat boiled in milk (low temperature cook?)
Ex.12:9 Not to eat sacrificial lamb uncooked
Ex. 12:10 Sacxrificial lamb to be eaten immediately, not left until next day
Lev. 2:13 Sacrifices to be salted
Lev. 7:18 Sacrifices to be eaten immediately after cooking
Lev. 7:19 unclean sacrifices shall be burned
Lev. 19:8 sacrifices must be eaten immediately
Lev. 22:30 Thanksgiving flesh must not be left overnight
Lev.11:34 Keep foods away from unclean things
Food must not come into contact with: lepers Lev. 13:47-49 , persons suffering from diorrhea Lev. 15:1-15 or corpses Num. 19:11-16
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Hi.....
A whole bunch of them, but I will have to arrive home to post them all.

Do you think that a Jew in early 1st century Galilee was within Mosiac law if he picked up a half eaten fish or piece of bread and ate it? If you don't know then nobody does....:)
It depends where he picked up the bread and fish. I mean, there's a chance the fish isn't kosher, unless its still in its skin and you can tell, or there is only kosher fish available in that area. And with the bread, it depends on whether the bread was made by Jews or non-Jews and if by Jews, whether they were generally careful to take the dough offering off for the priest as well as the regular heave offering and tithes.

There also may be some Rabbinic problems, but that's obviously not going to be relevant to the NT authors.

Hello again.
Tumah, I've trawled through the laws of Moses for examples of great care about and with cleanliness. Imo creatures that carry infestation or (like carnivores/omnivores) accumulkate poisons definitely quality and any uncooked meats, leftover foods, etc can gather infections. There are no doubt many more, but I offer this sample. I have given chapter and verse but only given brief descriotion of the actual writings to save space.

It just amazes me how much these folks knew about protection from sickness. Quite absolutely brilliant.

Lev. 11:4 examination for unclean beasts
Lev. 11:9 examination for unclean fish
Lev. 11:11 unclean fish
Deut. 14:11 examination for unclean fowl
Lev. 11:13 unclean fowl
Lev. 11:21 examination for unclean locust
Lev. 11:41 unclean fruit worm
I understand that in Christian translations, the word used here is often translated as "unclean". But a better translation is "impure". I don't think hygiene has anything to do with it. Why should four species of grasshopper be any more hygienic than the others? Why is a wild deer more hygienic than a domesticated horse or camel?

Ex.22:30 torn flesh
Deut. 14:21 beasts dead from sickness
The animal that was killed by another animal (from Ex), or died on its own (from Deut) also probably has nothing to do with hygiene. We're only allowed to eat animals that were slaughtered by a Jew (although you may disagree with that being a Biblical requirement). And we're required to drain the animal of blood. You can't do that if its already been dead for three days.

Ex. 23:19 meat boiled in milk (low temperature cook?)
That's reaching.

Ex.12:9 Not to eat sacrificial lamb uncooked
Only one sacrifice has that requirement. The others that are eaten don't.

And that particular one can be a goat too.

Ex. 12:10 Sacxrificial lamb to be eaten immediately, not left until next day

Some sacrifices do have until (but not including) the following night.

Lev. 2:13 Sacrifices to be salted
Including the meal offering which is made out of grain. And including sacrifices that weren't eaten.

Lev. 7:18 Sacrifices to be eaten immediately after cooking
It says that this type of sacrifice (the peace offering) has to be eaten within two days of being sacrificed. It doesn't say anything about cooking.

On the other hand, there is no commandment to eat non-sacrificial meat within any specific time frame.

Lev. 7:19 unclean sacrifices shall be burned
Again, this word here should be "impure". So for instance, if a man who has ejaculated within the past day touches a sacrifice, it becomes impure and needs to be burned. Or if someone touches a dead body and then takes a long shower, but hasn't been sprinkled by the red heifer water touches a sacrifice, its got to be burned.

Lev. 19:8 sacrifices must be eaten immediately
Again, this is the same type of sacrifice mentioned above in 7:18 and the verse is telling you that you have two days to eat it.

Lev. 22:30 Thanksgiving flesh must not be left overnight
As opposed to the peace offering mentioned above which has two days and the night in between.

Lev.11:34 Keep foods away from unclean things
This verse is saying that if food came in contact with water it will become impure if placed in a vessel that is already impure. The implication being if the food doesn't come in contact with water but is placed in an impure vessel, it doesn't become impure.

Food must not come into contact with: lepers Lev. 13:47-49
The sickness here although often called leprosy is not actually leprosy. Its because of a mistake in the Greek word.
Tzaraath - Wikipedia

persons suffering from diorrhea Lev. 15:1-15
I never would have thought of that translation. But its understood to be a flow from the male reproductive organ.
Zav - Wikipedia

or corpses Num. 19:11-16
That includes someone who just died a second ago. He's not any less hygienic than he was 3 minutes before.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It depends where he picked up the bread and fish. I mean, there's a chance the fish isn't kosher, unless its still in its skin and you can tell, or there is only kosher fish available in that area. And with the bread, it depends on whether the bread was made by Jews or non-Jews and if by Jews, whether they were generally careful to take the dough offering off for the priest as well as the regular heave offering and tithes.

There also may be some Rabbinic problems, but that's obviously not going to be relevant to the NT authors.


I understand that in Christian translations, the word used here is often translated as "unclean". But a better translation is "impure". I don't think hygiene has anything to do with it. Why should four species of grasshopper be any more hygienic than the others? Why is a wild deer more hygienic than a domesticated horse or camel?


The animal that was killed by another animal (from Ex), or died on its own (from Deut) also probably has nothing to do with hygiene. We're only allowed to eat animals that were slaughtered by a Jew (although you may disagree with that being a Biblical requirement). And we're required to drain the animal of blood. You can't do that if its already been dead for three days.


That's reaching.


Only one sacrifice has that requirement. The others that are eaten don't.

And that particular one can be a goat too.



Some sacrifices do have until (but not including) the following night.


Including the meal offering which is made out of grain. And including sacrifices that weren't eaten.


It says that this type of sacrifice (the peace offering) has to be eaten within two days of being sacrificed. It doesn't say anything about cooking.

On the other hand, there is no commandment to eat non-sacrificial meat within any specific time frame.


Again, this word here should be "impure". So for instance, if a man who has ejaculated within the past day touches a sacrifice, it becomes impure and needs to be burned. Or if someone touches a dead body and then takes a long shower, but hasn't been sprinkled by the red heifer water touches a sacrifice, its got to be burned.


Again, this is the same type of sacrifice mentioned above in 7:18 and the verse is telling you that you have two days to eat it.


As opposed to the peace offering mentioned above which has two days and the night in between.


This verse is saying that if food came in contact with water it will become impure if placed in a vessel that is already impure. The implication being if the food doesn't come in contact with water but is placed in an impure vessel, it doesn't become impure.


The sickness here although often called leprosy is not actually leprosy. Its because of a mistake in the Greek word.
Tzaraath - Wikipedia


I never would have thought of that translation. But its understood to be a flow from the male reproductive organ.
Zav - Wikipedia


That includes someone who just died a second ago. He's not any less hygienic than he was 3 minutes before.

Tumah....... thankyou for the time you spent with that reply.

So...... your post has substantially answered a debate I have held with Christians, proposing that the disciples could NOT have eaten discarded bread and fish dropped upon the ground by other Jews because it would have been unclean (dirty). I think I've lost that one! :D

Therefore it does seem as if a Jew holding a scaled fish, prepared for Jews to eat, and about to eat it, drops it upon the ground, that he is perfectly 'in order' or 'not wrong' if he chooses to piock it up, brush any dirt from it and eat it there and then.

This thread has accomplished its purpose, methinks.

But,Tumah, if you're interested we've got ourselves an interesting debate! :) In the next few days I could open a thread which proposes that the Laws of Moses have lost their main objective (over thousands of years) and whereas back in the day they were written to produce the most successfull, healthy, secure and 'cohesed' tribe anywhere in the known World, that now the MO has drifted into a culture which follows the laws of Moses, not because to break them is Sin (and sin leads to sickness) but because its 'It's just what Jews do'.

Anyway, if I could have a couple of days to prepare, and I will use the @ feature to notify you that it has started.

PS. I hope that your Sunday event (weekend before last) went really well for you and all your guests.
 
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