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This will shake some people to their core...

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The reason I don't put my OP in debate is that I have bad experience with it, to much poo flinging will occur.

Yeah, I know. But ask one of the more knowledge posters about what a discussion should be about as for style and presentation of the subject at hand.. I am not great at those, so I tend to go for debate.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
My advice to anyone thinking of writing a religious text that they want to be perceived as peaceful is to not include, in any context, the phrase: "kill them where you find them." Unless they're talking about germs or something. This would seem to just be sensical to a large degree... but I get that "sense" has been found lacking throughout the history of mankind. Therefore, no surprise to find that a lack of sense has also pervaded religion, obviously.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
My advice to anyone thinking of writing a religious text that they want to be perceived as peaceful is to not include, in any context, the phrase: "kill them where you find them." Unless they're talking about germs or something.

Well, that is easy. You are not really a human. You are a germ. ;)

Any claim can be interpreted as anyone sees fit.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
But who is left to decide who is a "terrorist?" For example, the Taliban and other Muslim radical extremists consider many westerners to be be "terrorists."

1. Where did they say "westerners" are terrorists? Thats a very general statement. Please quote them directly.
2. You cannot do anachronism. Its a fallacy.
 

idea

Question Everything
... Loyalty should be to principle only.

If we're ever going to achieve peace and prosperity in the world, we must stop coveting the wealth of others or exploiting them, or supporting those persons and organizations who do. We must abandon differential moral obligation and treat everyone as brothers, just as the Abrahamic holy books seem to recommend (in some parts. :rolleyes:).

...end of rant.

And the principles are...
  • honesty = education - changing beliefs where new information is found,
  • Work hard & be self-reliant - if you want something, work to get it for yourself (Learn from/copy others who have what you want rather than covet.)
  • Work together - synergy - combined efforts are greater than individuals working alone.

Tribalism, power struggles, much of it comes from those who are not self-reliant. Small children, elderly, those who are ill - we all spend part of our life not being self-reliant and do need to support one another in cases where people are unable to support themselves - but if we could all get away from relying on God, or rely on religious leader, or rely on family, or rely on government - and instead rely on ourself - teach everyone to rely on themselves...

It is through pulling energy and resources from others rather than producing it our self that trouble happens for all religious groups I think.
 

idea

Question Everything
What I speak of here is my understanding of the teaching, that means other Muslims and non Muslims alike will probably disagree with my understanding, and that's ok

From religious fanatic →→ to religious moderate →→ to universalist/seeing other points of view →→ peace

That first step from fanatic to peaceful moderate views I think happens through re-interpreting religious texts. A fanatic will not read or listen to anything other than their own scripture, so that first difficult step to a more peaceful society comes through talking to others using their own scripture.

Fanatics recognize where the chain can lead them - out of their religious faith - so might see you as a heretic, an evil spirit, an enemy to "reinterpret" scriptures. Those who question group leaders get burned at the stake, are hated more than atheists, more than other religious groups. Think for yourself, reinterpret scriptures, it can be seen as disloyal, as being like adultery, so be careful who you talk to and what you say.

Like all religions there are those within who corrupt for their own purposes.
↑ reinterpret scripture and you will be labeled as "someone within who corrupts". The most hatred and anger is given to those who were once in a group, and change popular interpretations, who not just leave themselves but pull others to leave with them. Try to talk someone out of terrorism, out of any irrational belief, and the group will turn on you.

It usually takes something close to you, your own child, or your own parents being hurt by a belief to take the first step. Most are not talked into it through reason, it has to be an experience that changes belief.... so just wait for people to have that experience, then when they have it, be there for them.... but you will not get very far just talking through concepts has been my experience.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
As you guys know, I am trying to be a sufi who find peaceful ways in life, even I might have a spike of anger now and then, so in my search I found this.
An I hope I will explain a bit about the teaching, but don't worry I have no need to do proselytizing. This thread hopefully will give answer to why extremism is wrong and that in the text when it say "kill others" it is not the non Muslims, but terrorists them self.

What is your thoughts after reading it?

Yet the extremists trying to kill Muslims in Mecca pursued the Muslims to kill them in Medina. And now – finally – the Quran addressed fighting for the first time, permitting Muslims to fight in self-defence. The permission given in Quran 22:40-41 to fight was only given to “those against whom war is waged.” And fighting wasn’t just to defend Muslims from persecution – but to defend Christians, Jews, and people of all faiths. All subsequent verses addressing fighting are pre-conditioned on these clearly outlined rules of self-defense. Otherwise, it’s cherry picking, something the Quran forbids as perverse.

Additionally, Quran 2:193-194 declares that Muslims may only fight active combatants. Meaning, even if during battle an enemy combatant asks for amnesty, you must grant it. In Islam, there’s no such thing as “collateral damage,” mutilation, or torture. All this notwithstanding, fact three issues the death blow to Daesh and Islamophobe ideology.

You might now understand who the Quran refers to when it says “kill them where you find them”. The “them” are those terrorists who persecuted people for their faith, exiled them from their homes and then pursued to kill innocent people in their new homes.

Show this to anyone who believes the Quran teaches violence


And to those who think this an attack on Islam: no it is not, it is to explain that basic Islam is not extreme and harmful to others.
I agree. But the extremist groups, do not agree with your interpretation of the Quran. And in fact many of those who support extremists do not necessarily believe in Islam or Quran. They only use it as a tool to gain Worldly power over people. Their motivation is really struggling for power. They are not struggling or making effort for God.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I agree. But the extremist groups, do not agree with your interpretation of the Quran. And in fact many of those who support extremists do not necessarily believe in Islam or Quran. They only use it as a tool to gain Worldly power over people. Their motivation is really struggling for power. They are not struggling or making effort for God.
Very true :)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And the principles are...
  • honesty = education - changing beliefs where new information is found,
  • Work hard & be self-reliant - if you want something, work to get it for yourself (Learn from/copy others who have what you want rather than covet.)
  • Work together - synergy - combined efforts are greater than individuals working alone.

Tribalism, power struggles, much of it comes from those who are not self-reliant. Small children, elderly, those who are ill - we all spend part of our life not being self-reliant and do need to support one another in cases where people are unable to support themselves - but if we could all get away from relying on God, or rely on religious leader, or rely on family, or rely on government - and instead rely on ourself - teach everyone to rely on themselves...

It is through pulling energy and resources from others rather than producing it our self that trouble happens for all religious groups I think.
You forgot:
Don't cause or contribute to unnecessary harm, pain or suffering.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is your thoughts after reading it?

I see it supports what the Bab and Baha'u'llah have offered the world about Muhammad.

It is also why I can embrace Muhammad as a Messenger from God.

This movie tells that story well. It had the permission and help of Islam at the time.


Regards Tony
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I see it supports what the Bab and Baha'u'llah have offered the world about Muhammad.

It is also why I can embrace Muhammad as a Messenger from God.

This movie tells that story well. It had the permission and help of Islam at the time.


Regards Tony
Thank you for sharing this video :) I will be watching it
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree. But the extremist groups, do not agree with your interpretation of the Quran. And in fact many of those who support extremists do not necessarily believe in Islam or Quran. They only use it as a tool to gain Worldly power over people. Their motivation is really struggling for power. They are not struggling or making effort for God.

You lump all of us in the same basket yet Quran praises a certain group that do fight, saying, were it not for God repelling some men by some men, not a Masjid, Church or Synagogue would remain standing.

Without resistance, Satan will have his way and there will be as Quran says "if you don't do it, there will be in the land tribulation and great corruption/mischief".
 
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