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Featured "This Video Will Absolutely Convince You Jonah Was Swallowed by a Whale"

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, May 13, 2019.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    OR a great fish, or a sea monster, or simply a sea creature, depending on what Bible you've picked up. In any case :D . . . . . . we have this cute little item about a video made by Dr. Sean McDowell, an associate professor in the Christian Apologetics program at Biola University.


    "How do you become a Christian apologist? Simple. You just say “God did it” every time someone points out a biblical impossibility. The more fancy you make it sound, the more casually you look and speak, the more emotion you throw into your explanations, the more popular and respected you will be.

    Case in point: Here’s Dr. Sean McDowell attempting to answer whether the character Jonah was really swallowed by a whale and lived inside its body for three days and three nights.

    The correct answer, of course, is Hahahahahaha, of course that’s not true.

    His answer is a fancy form of “God did it.”

    First, he offers some factors that he claims give the story a “ring of authenticity”: Jesus mentioned him as a historical figure, Jonah’s not a typical hero, etc. (Checkmate, atheists!)

    Then he gets into the bigger picture.


    … Look, if God could speak the world into existence; if God can make life from non-life; if God can come down in the person of Jesus and walk on water, heal the blind, and heal lepers, then putting Jonah in the fish for three days is child’s play.

    [We have] good historical reason to think it’s authentic, but when we step back and look at the larger case for God, then Jonah being swallowed by a big fish is actually quite easy in many circumstances to believe could be true.

    There you have it. I can only assume all of you are convinced. I mean, there was music in the video. What more do you need to be convinced that Christian myths are true?!
    source

    Amusing, but of course the real point is that it's sorry defenses such as this (any impossibility is resolved by playing the "God Did It" card) that reveal Christian apologetics as the bankrupt operation it is.

    .
     
    #1 Skwim, May 13, 2019
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  2. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Totally convinced /s
     
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  3. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Im normally very skeptic about these things, but this guy makes an EXTREMELY strong case, I mean the amount of solid evidence is just so overwhelming, im speechless. He pretty much had me at the intro "Bringing truth to a new generation" and he have a PH.D!!!!! I see a nobel prize on its way :D
     
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  4. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    And here I thought this was an allegory. A cautionary tale intended to lead us to follow the righteous path and serve God and not a retelling of an actual event.

    After seeing this video and the evidence he uses, I am convinced. Jonah was swallowed by a BOUS (bass of unusual size). Thank goodness pastors like that do not ask for money, my hand was half way to my bank card as it was.
     
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  5. Left Coast

    Left Coast Well-Known Member
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    I remember the first time I heard a Catholic priest say during a homily that Jonah could be read as an allegory and there were actually textual reasons to think that's how it was intended. My literalist Evangelical mind was BLOWN.
     
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  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And obviously a Large Mouthed Bass.
     
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  7. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Dang. Who needs pastors, reverends or ministers anymore when you have Dr's.

    Check this out...

    Ph.D. Apologetics and Worldview Studies, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (2014)

    M.A. Philosophy, Talbot School of Theology (summa cum laude, 2003)

    M.A. Theology, Talbot School of Theology (summa cum laude, 2003)

    B.A. Biola University (summa cum laude, 1998)

    Major: Communications; Minor: Bible,

    Sean McDowell | Curriculum Vitae


    If anybody knows anything about fish, it's Him.
     
  8. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I hear that years later, Roland Martin caught that large mouthed bass and when he cleaned it, right there in the stomach, Killroy was scratched out and it said "Jonah was here".
     
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  9. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I wonder why it took him as long as is indicated? I thought you paid your money and picked up your degree at the other side of the mill.
     
  10. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I was already convinced.

    Sean looks a bit like his dad Josh MacDowell
     
  11. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Didn´t watch your video, if you selected it, it is obviously pretty poor.

    So you say Christian apologetics is bankrupt, because we acknowledge that God is omnipotent., and has reached into His creation for a variety of reasons, OK.

    As an atheist then, you must appreciate science apologetics, that is the concept that science has the faculty to to explain all things.

    In this discipline, what cannot be explained is not true, or it is as if it has been explained by science , because science says it can and will explain it. Sort of like an interlocutory decree in a divorce.

    The most outrageous ideas, have the bona fides , the seal of approval, of science and are placidly accepted.

    So then, it is hilarious that some believe a large fish acts within the plan itś creator had for it.

    Those same people accept with all seriousness the idea that the true parents of life and of humanity are rocks, from which the rain leached out chemicals, that interacted with whatever from the atmosphere, and hey presto, life was the result.

    I guess we all can believev impossible stuff, huh ?
     
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  12. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    It was the Batman T shirt wasn't it.:cool:
     
  13. Left Coast

    Left Coast Well-Known Member
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    The reason Christian apologetics is bankrupt in this context is because God is unfalsifiable as an explanation for phenomena. By definition, there is no set of circumstances we could ever imagine that an omnipotent being couldn't cause to occur.

    Incorrect. What I assert is that science is the best method for finding explanations for natural phenomena that humans have ever come up with. If there is anything supernatural, by definition science cannot verify anything about it.

    False. What cannot be explained is simply that - unexplained. The error theists make is to assert that because we don't have an explanation for something, God must have done it. That is fallacious reasoning, and, again, unfalsifiable.

    Science has demonstrated itself to be the best method for finding explanations for phenomena in all human history. We're communicating through technology that has been made possible by scientific investigation and experimentation.

    Again, false. No ideas are "placidly accepted" in science. For ideas (better word, hypotheses) to become accepted they have to be testable and falsifiable, and have to stand up to experimentation. And even then, it is understood that they are tentative models of reality that can be falsified if further contrary evidence is uncovered.

    It's hilarious to believe that a human being would live for three days after being swallowed by a fish, yes. It is flagrantly contrary to what we know about both fish and humans.

    Strawman. You need to do some reading from peer reviewed academic sources on abiogenesis. Honestly, don't you want to understand the strongest version of your opponents' views rather than the weakest?
     
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  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    After Noah, we come to Jonah.
    At least it rhymes

    More than eighty percent of our ocean is unmapped, unobserved, and unexplored. Much remains to be learned from exploring the mysteries of the deep.Jul 11, 2018
    How much of the ocean have we explored?

    https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/exploration.html


    So how can a man be wise enough than the combined scientists of
    the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration of the US Department of Commerce?
    He must be a genius that he have mapped, observed and explored all the oceans
    and found out that there was no huge fish capable of swallowing Jonah.
    Too smart that he knew all these things without getting his pants wet.

    Matthew 12:40 New International Version (NIV)
    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Jesus Christ said it was a huge fish and compared Jonah to him
    spending 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth
    well there is no reason not to believe it

    upload_2019-5-14_12-1-21.jpeg
     
  15. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    ok.....let's play the scenario by vision....

    you're on the boat
    the storm comes on strong
    it looks really bad......and a passenger claims it's all his fault

    you don't buy it

    but the situation worsens and you begin to wonder
    and the passenger keeps insisting......it stops when I go overboard

    ok then......over the side he goes.....man overboard

    and the storm begins to ease up immediately

    and the last thing you see of him......something took him under the water
    it was big

    so.....was the account written by the shipmate?
    or by Jonah?

    quite frankly...I think it's a metaphor
    Jonah....while trying to escape...
    was swallowed up by Something Greater than himself
     
  16. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    I state what I state because I have done a lot of reading re abiogenesis, including peer reviewed publications.

    After all the smoke clears over simple polymers of protein or amino acids, or hypotheses about chemical self reproduction, or whatever, the bottom line is exactly the same, how it occurred is absolutely unknown.

    So science is about natural explanations, theology about supernatural explanations.

    If atheists invoke the scientific method to void the methods and conclusions of a totally different discipline, why can´t theology be used to void the scientific method ?

    Why do atheists continually want to drag theology and itś conclusionś into their field, and then attempt to obliterate it using their standards ?

    To a theologist scientific proof of the existence of God may be an irrelevant point, Her discipline is about exploring God in complex and varied ways.

    Bottom line, it is apples and oranges.

    I personally value science highly. At the beginning of my university program I thought much about studying biology, with a concentration in entomology.

    I have long held interests in astronomy and cosmology.

    I, of course have a very deep interest in Christian theology, apologetics, philosophy, and the discipline of logic.

    Some of my friends are Christians and scientists, one, a prominent, highly published microbiologist.

    Science may never have the proof it demands for the existence of God, thatś fine, itś their game when their rules are applied.

    However, their criticism means little in theology
     
  17. Left Coast

    Left Coast Well-Known Member
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    Then you should be well aware that "poof! Then life happened" as if by magic is not what any serious abiogenesis hypothesis postulates. That's creationism, not science.

    I agree. And an explanation being currently unknown is not a rational justification for asserting that God did it.

    Void is an odd word choice there. Science does not "void" supernatural claims. Science has nothing to say about alleged supernatural realities, except when those alleged supernatural realities are postulated as explanations for phenomena in nature. When you step into empirical turf, science does have things to say. Like the idea that a guy could be swallowed by a fish and survive inside its stomach for three days.

    You have the blame reversed. It is creationists who want to drag their supernaturalism into the empirical realm. This is why they constantly bring up abiogenesis, evolution, the age of the earth, etc. and try desperately to poke any hole they can think of into them, as though doing so somehow demonstrates the existence of their God or the accuracy of their creation myths. When the reality is, the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Even if scientists are completely and utterly wrong about how life emerged or how it evolved, that is irrelevant as to whether Christianity is true or there's a God.

    We agree! So I look forward to you joining me in chiding creationists in future threads when they bring up evolution or abiogenesis as though they're relevant to theism, or attempt to argue that empirical evidence in nature somehow demonstrates a god or the validity of Christian theology. Thank you!
     
  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Balder poop! It is not "absolutely" unknown. Scientists have a very good idea of how it couldn't happen---knowing the impossibilities is almost as important as knowing the possibilities. And if you have read peer reviewed publications I question your selection and/or understanding of them, because a good deal of knowledge has been acquired pointing to the likely mechanisms and processes of abiogenesis.

    Because theology isn't open to competing facts like science is, but must conform to the dictates of faith. There's a hell of a lot of truth in the old cartoon.

    [​IMG]


    Just what theology and itś conclusionś have you seen dragged into the field of science? The only time I ever see scientists addressing a theological issue is when the religious faithful attack some finding of science; the most prominent being their defense of evolution. And even then the issue is seldom one of theology, but of science.

    As he opens a can of red herrings.

    First reasonable remark you've made so far.

    .
     
  19. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    ok....so if we find an interesting item.....
    we should not seek a means to support the premise????
     
  20. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    so much for debate
     
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