This thread is so gay

[Kilgore Trout]

Why thank you. :blushes:

You see? I said you were so gay and you took no offense. No problem. What are you whining about?

 

[Falvlun]

In other words, you like to be offended and don't like to actually listen when people talk to you. Got it. That's pretty selfish, though isn't it?

Huh? Where'd you get that?

My stance is that the use of "gay" as a derogatory term has a lot of potential of being harmful for all of those above reasons. Since you are not omniscient, you don't know that your usage has never had an adverse effect upon the group you profess to care about. I think the easiest and most obvious solution is to simply avoid using the term.

Look at it from my point of view. I see a lot of potential harm from using the word, and no actual need to use it. It's not a big sacrifice to remove a word from one's lexicon. It could actually benefit the group you care about, rather than potentially harming it. Not removing it, simply because you don't want to, is the epitome of selfishness.

 

[Panda]

Huh? Where'd you get that?

My stance is that the use of "gay" as a derogatory term has a lot of potential of being harmful for all of those above reasons. Since you are not omniscient, you don't know that your usage has never had an adverse effect upon the group you profess to care about. I think the easiest and most obvious solution is to simply avoid using the term.

Look at it from my point of view. I see a lot of potential harm from using the word, and no actual need to use it. It's not a big sacrifice to remove a word from one's lexicon. It could actually benefit the group you care about, rather than potentially harming it. Not removing it, simply because you don't want to, is the epitome of selfishness.

Is you being offended by it any less selfish? It is your choice if you want to be offended or not.

 

[Magic Man]

Huh? Where'd you get that?

From your last post. You're offended by out use of the word, even though you can see we're not saying homosexuality is bad and aren't intending to be offensive. You're offended because you think that use of the word could instill in some people the notion that homosexuality is bad, even though that's not a result of our use of it. Also, your last post showed pretty clearly that you haven't actually been listening to anything we've said.

My stance is that the use of "gay" as a derogatory term has a lot of potential of being harmful for all of those above reasons. Since you are not omniscient, you don't know that your usage has never had an adverse effect upon the group you profess to care about. I think the easiest and most obvious solution is to simply avoid using the term.

Sure, and the easiest and most obvious way to make sure you don't end up a drunk is to never drink. To make sure you never end up in a car accident, you should never drive or be in a car. It's possible to do things that could potentially be harmful in ways that render them, for all intents and purposes, harmless. My use of this word is one of those things.

And again, as I brought up before, over the past 15-20 years acceptance of the LGBT community has skyrocketed, and it's only getting better. That's the same time period that our use of "gay" has become popular. Obviously our use of that word is not having a detrimental effect on society's opinion of gay people.

Look at it from my point of view. I see a lot of potential harm from using the word, and no actual need to use it. It's not a big sacrifice to remove a word from one's lexicon. It could actually benefit the group you care about, rather than potentially harming it. Not removing it, simply because you don't want to, is the epitome of selfishness.

Sure, and again, since a lot of other words could potentially cause harm and offend people, we should remove them, too. In fact, we should probably just stop communicating with each other completely. That way, we're sure to not offend anyone.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I'm sure to some people it does. To the people I use it around it does not, nor does it to me.

All right: why does "gay" mean "bad" when you use it in the context of "those uniforms are gay"? What is it about being "gay", in whatever sense you're using it, that implies "bad"?

OK, but I'm not.

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to realize how expressions like that can be taken. And in any case, even an unintended insult is still an insult.

I can understand that some people see it that way, but it's not the intended way.

The narrow focus of your intentions doesn't matter. If you know that "homosexual" is part of the meaning of "gay" and you use the term as an epithet anyhow, then you should've know better.

Of course, as others have said, I am careful not to use it in certain situations because I understand that it could be offensive to some people. I guess to me it's like a joke about Jews or something. I tell all kinds of offensive jokes to people I know will understand them in the right context, but I would never tell certain jokes in mixed company. When I tell the jokes, I'm not actually saying there's something wrong with blondes or Jews or that the implications of the joke are actually true. I'm just saying something that's funny because of the stereotypes about certain groups, even if those stereotypes aren't true.

And in doing so, you perpetuate the idea that those stereotypes are culturally acceptable. A strange thing to do if you don't really believe in them, IMO.

Yes, why?

Because you're throwing away the established meaning of a word after complaining about someone else doing the exact same thing. I think this is very inconsistent on your part.

 

[Falvlun]

Is you being offended by it any less selfish? It is your choice if you want to be offended or not.

It's not about me. It about the gay community. It's about the uphill battle they are facing to become mainstream, accepted members of society. Why make the hill any steeper than it already is? Even if you do it unintentionally, does that make any difference to those people who are trying to make the climb?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Right, and at some point in time I'm guessing the b word was used both to mean a boy born out of wedlock and as an insult.

Yes, because the implication was that there was something wrong with being born out of wedlock.

The b-word started as an insult specifically because of a societal attitude that said that people who were born to unmarried parents were somehow "lower" or worth less than other people.

The whole reason why the b-word was considered an insult was because of the idea that being a b-word was bad. Same with using "gay" as an insult: it's entirely predicated on the idea that there's something wrong with being homosexual. Can you really not see this?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure, as long as there is an awareness of both concepts.

And anyone who hasn't lived under a rock for the past several decades knows that "gay" is commonly used as a synonym for "homosexual".

I was born in 1974, grew up in various parts of the country, and the term "so gay" or "something is gay" was commonly used by kids around the country. Perhaps your unawareness of the term is more an issue of being sheltered.

As for being aware of what homosexual actually was, there wasn't any open discussion or portrayal of homosexuality when I was kid, nor was there an internet. I doubt most kids really knew what homosexual meant at 6 years old back then. Assuming that kids at that age can really understand it anyway.

Kids that age typically pick up the term from adults or older kids who know what homosexuality is.

And as long as I've heard the expression "that's so gay", I've heard sarcastic retorts like "you mean it makes you like guys?"

But in any case, you did realize at some point that "that's so gay" did refer to homosexuality, right? At that point, you can either choose to stop using the term or not, and beyond that point, the "I didn't know" excuse doesn't work.

Indeed, but that still doesn't eliminate the possibility of people have two completely separate contexts for the same word. At the end of the day, it's all about intention and context.

And about transparent excuses that supposedly intelligent kids don't realize that the two words have anything to do with each other, apparently.

 

[Magic Man]

All right: why does "gay" mean "bad" when you use it in the context of "those uniforms are gay"? What is it about being "gay", in whatever sense you're using it, that implies "bad"?

It's pretty hard to explain. I'm not sure I can.

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to realize how expressions like that can be taken. And in any case, even an unintended insult is still an insult.

Yup, which is why I've said I don't use it around people who might take offense.

The narrow focus of your intentions doesn't matter. If you know that "homosexual" is part of the meaning of "gay" and you use the term as an epithet anyhow, then you should've know better.

There's nothing to know better. I understand that I'm not using it to say homosexuality is bad, and the people I'm using it with understand that I'm not saying that.

And in doing so, you perpetuate the idea that those stereotypes are culturally acceptable. A strange thing to do if you don't really believe in them, IMO.

No, I don't. Again, my friends and I understand that the stereotypes aren't necessarily true, and telling the jokes doesn't mean we think they are.

Because you're throwing away the established meaning of a word after complaining about someone else doing the exact same thing. I think this is very inconsistent on your part.

I'm not throwing anything away. "Gay" also still means "homosexual", but not in this context. If anything I'm being completely consistent. In this case, I'm saying you need to distinguish between the two meanings of the same word in different contexts, which is exactly what I am saying in the case of "faith". Faith can mean "belief without evidence" and "trust", but each is used in a different context. Gay can mean "bad" and "homosexual", but each is used in a different context with no relation to the other congnitively.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, because the implication was that there was something wrong with being born out of wedlock.

The b-word started as an insult specifically because of a societal attitude that said that people who were born to unmarried parents were somehow "lower" or worth less than other people.

The whole reason why the b-word was considered an insult was because of the idea that being a b-word was bad. Same with using "gay" as an insult: it's entirely predicated on the idea that there's something wrong with being homosexual. Can you really not see this?

Yup, and now it's not seen as a bad thing to be born out of wedlock, but we still use the b word as an insult, just like in the future being gay won't be seen as a bad thing, and we'll be using "gay" as an insult.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is you being offended by it any less selfish? It is your choice if you want to be offended or not.

Actually, offense is involuntary. The Stroop effect is even stronger when profanity is used in the test instead of the wrong colour names.

Does a gay person also get the choice of whether or not he has to deal with people who have had the message "gay = bad" repeated to them over and over again for their whole lives?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And about transparent excuses that supposedly intelligent kids don't realize that the two words have anything to do with each other, apparently.

Do you ever bother to even read what other people actually write? Or you simply incapable of understanding a view you don't hold? Discussing something with you is like talking to brick wall with a chip on its shoulder. Christ, you can be annoying as ****.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's pretty hard to explain. I'm not sure I can.

Well, try. Your whole argument is that "gay" can imply "bad" without implying that homosexuality is bad. I'm interested to see how this could be possible.

Yup, which is why I've said I don't use it around people who might take offense.

You say that as if it makes it all right; it doesn't. It still perpetuates the idea that it's okay to portray homosexuality as something negative.

There's nothing to know better. I understand that I'm not using it to say homosexuality is bad, and the people I'm using it with understand that I'm not saying that.

Again, that doesn't make it okay.

No, I don't. Again, my friends and I understand that the stereotypes aren't necessarily true, and telling the jokes doesn't mean we think they are.

Hmm. Then you and your friends tell each other racist and sexist jokes in a way that I've never encountered before.

I'm not throwing anything away. "Gay" also still means "homosexual", but not in this context.

... if you're completely ignorant of the last few decades of history and culture, maybe.

Yup, and now it's not seen as a bad thing to be born out of wedlock, but we still use the b word as an insult,

Speak for yourself. You might; I don't.

just like in the future being gay won't be seen as a bad thing, and we'll be using "gay" as an insult.

No, I think that once homophobia goes away, so will homophobic insults.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, try. Your whole argument is that "gay" can imply "bad" without implying that homosexuality is bad. I'm interested to see how this could be possible.

I don't have to explain the nuances of the term to explain how it can mean two different things that don't affect each other, though. I can explain that when I use it in the "those uniforms are so gay" way, it isn't implying that homosexuality is bad.

You say that as if it makes it all right; it doesn't. It still perpetuates the idea that it's okay to portray homosexuality as something negative.

No, it doesn't. If that was true, why would any gay person not have a problem with it?

Again, that doesn't make it okay.

Maybe not to you.

Hmm. Then you and your friends tell each other racist and sexist jokes in a way that I've never encountered before.

Or you just don't understand that telling those jokes doesn't do what you think it does.

... if you're completely ignorant of the last few decades of history and culture, maybe.

Or even if you're not completely ignorant of the last few decades of history and culture, and even if you're not sitting up on a high horse.

Speak for yourself. You might; I don't.

OK, well, I and most other people do. You can, too, if you want. It's no different than using the f word or other cuss words.

No, I think that once homophobia goes away, so will homophobic insults.

OK, but that shows an ignorance about the use of this word. Since it's not a homophobic insult, it's not connected to whether or not homophobia exists. Just as we still have the b-word even though no one really considers that to be a bad thing. The insult "gay" will probably still be around even when homosexuality is fully accepted legally and socially. And if it's not, it's because it's a fad that went out of style like "groovy".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you ever bother to even read what other people actually write? Or you simply incapable of understanding a view you don't hold?

I just don't accept your premises. Apparently, you want me to believe that we can compartmentalize these two usages of the same word as if they don't have anything to do with each other, and we can ignore the completely foreseeable effects that our words have on others if we didn't really intend them. I completely reject this.

Discussing something with you is like talking to brick wall with a chip on its shoulder. Christ, you can be annoying as ****.

I do tend to get my back up when people tell me that obviously false things are true.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I just don't accept your premises. Apparently, you want me to believe that we can compartmentalize these two usages of the same word as if they don't have anything to do with each other, and we can ignore the completely foreseeable effects that our words have on others if we didn't really intend them. I completely reject this.

And you're completely wrong.

I do tend to get my back up when people tell me that obviously false things are true.

And again.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think this thread is getting my temper going, so I'll just bow out and leave it at this:

IMO, this is a simple matter of fundamental respect. I think that using the term "gay" as an epithet hurts people who I care about, so I refuse to use it that way. That's really the bottom line for me.

 

[Magic Man]

I think this thread is getting my temper going, so I'll just bow out and leave it at this:

Yeah, it seems to be doing that with a few people.

IMO, this is a simple matter of fundamental respect. I think that using the term "gay" as an epithet hurts people who I care about, so I refuse to use it that way. That's really the bottom line for me.

And that's fine. I have no problem with that, and I understand some people see it that way. Just like I understand that not everyone can laugh at a sexist joke and blow it off as nothing more than a joke. That's why I don't tell those jokes or use gay in that way in the possible company of such people.

 

[monta]

I really regret making this thread I worded it badly and made it unbelievably insulting. It wasn't what I meant it to be. I'm sorry for the offense caused. I have been reflecting on my own jocular use of the word from time to time, and the fact that I don't consider myself homophobic, but, would usually consider someone who used the word black to describe something in negative light to be racist with rare exceptions.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I really regret making this thread I worded it badly and made it unbelievably insulting. It wasn't what I meant it to be. I'm sorry for the offense caused. I have been reflecting on my own jocular use of the word from time to time, and the fact that I don't consider myself homophobic, but, would usually consider someone who used the word black to describe something in negative light to be racist with rare exceptions.

It's all your fault. Have you no shame?