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This section should be under Judaism.

IsmailaGodHasHeard

Well-Known Member
This section should be under Judaism. Judaism has the same beliefs. The only difference is that some Jews accept Yehoshua (Jesus) as their Messiah.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
This section should be under Judaism. Judaism has the same beliefs. The only difference is that some Jews accept Yehoshua (Jesus) as their Messiah.

In order to believe that an individual is the messiah, when the beliefs of a particular faith makes it quite clear that that individual is not the messiah, we would have to be dealing with a very different concept of what the messiah is supposed to be and do. The set of beliefs that cast Jesus in the role of the messiah is very different from what Judaism teaches regarding the messiah... so with different basic fundamental differences comes a different section in the forum.

I think that's all I'm allowed to say here, because this is not a debate forum, and I'm not a Messianic Jew.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
This section should be under Judaism. Judaism has the same beliefs. The only difference is that some Jews accept Yehoshua (Jesus) as their Messiah.
It's just where it should be. There's a wide spectrum of belief that this DIR covers, to be anywhere else would exclude some. When I came here, it was under christianity.
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
Do you mind if ask a question here? Since Messianics believe in Jesus why are they not in the Christian forum? They are Christians who just happen to be Jews. Their theology is Christian.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Do you mind if ask a question here?

You certainly may ask, I hope I can clarify.

Since Messianics believe in Jesus why are they not in the Christian forum?

That's the key, isn't it? That MJ 'believe in Jesus' isn't the issue but what they actually mean by this? If they define belief without any of the trinity doctrine and incarnationist doctrine, nor believe in a covenant that replaces the covenant of Sinai, nor deify the man in any way, then that's not Christianity nor does it fit in any Christian DIR. If a MJ does not even 'believe in Jesus' as Moshiach ben David, (that every Jew awaits,) but rather sees in him Moshiach ben Yosef, then that certainly isn't Christianity is it? Few Jews know the meaning of Moshiach ben Yosef, and virtually no gentiles do. Some MJ are 0% Christian, and will not ever be in a Christian forum.

...They are Christians who just happen to be Jews. Their theology is Christian.
Despite the above statement, there are indeed MJ who are Christians in every way, but still identify themselves as Jews. These are 'Hebrew Christians' and this DIR is for them, too.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's just where it should be. There's a wide spectrum of belief that this DIR covers, to be anywhere else would exclude some. When I came here, it was under christianity.

Thanks for clearing that up, actually, up until this thread I didn't know what was covered in this individual DIR.
 
Do you mind if ask a question here? Since Messianics believe in Jesus why are they not in the Christian forum? They are Christians who just happen to be Jews. Their theology is Christian.

Actually it depends upon the group of messianics as to whether their theology is Christian in the complete sense of the word. I would say that the Mainstream of "Messianic Judaism" is completely Christian.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Actually it depends upon the group of messianics as to whether their theology is Christian in the complete sense of the word. I would say that the Mainstream of "Messianic Judaism" is completely Christian.

There are two (at least) distinct groups of MJ. The ones who come from Xian backgrounds will of course be "completely Christian". I prefer to call such by the term (that they often use themselves) 'Hebrew Christian'. I think of them as Seventh Day Adventists with a bit of Jewish culture added.

The MJ from Jewish backgrounds have very much less to do with Xianity. I prefer to self-label as 'Ebionite' to further distance myself, as I feel I have very little in common with that first group.
 
There are two (at least) distinct groups of MJ. The ones who come from Xian backgrounds will of course be "completely Christian". I prefer to call such by the term (that they often use themselves) 'Hebrew Christian'. I think of them as Seventh Day Adventists with a bit of Jewish culture added.

The MJ from Jewish backgrounds have very much less to do with Xianity. I prefer to self-label as 'Ebionite' to further distance myself, as I feel I have very little in common with that first group.

hmm. I don't think background has much to do with it. Michael Brown for example is from a Jewish background but he is theologically Christian in every sense of the word. There are some who were raised Christian but now share very little with Christian theology and identify more with Jewish theology, in fact may attend Orthodox or Conservative synagogues to worship as opposed to going to any Messianic group.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
hmm. I don't think background has much to do with it. Michael Brown for example is from a Jewish background but he is theologically Christian in every sense of the word. There are some who were raised Christian but now share very little with Christian theology and identify more with Jewish theology, in fact may attend Orthodox or Conservative synagogues to worship as opposed to going to any Messianic group.

I'd have to agree with you that some MJ make the transition almost completely into the other faith, but that's the minority. Most MJ are products of their upbringing and education.

I for one no longer attend any MJ shul, simply because I've seen the strife and conflict these two world views can have when 'merged'. I was an Elder, and privy to all the leadership's issues, so I have insider view that most congregants never see. Politics is found in every church and shul, as anyone who's on a board knows, but MJ board politics is a whole new level. I want nothing to do with it ever again.

Here's a dirty little secret of MJ....

Many, many congregation families are intermarried. More than Reform even (and I was recently on a Reform board).

You can see the appeal, surely. Blended faith for a blended family. Most of them have a pretty mediocre at best religious education background. It's a compromise religion to raise the kids.

Sorry, but that's the reality. Intermarriage is a big factor in MJ memberships.
 

Sariel

Heretic
I remember being severely disappointed when I first switched from Christianity to Messianic Judaism and most of the assemblies near me weren't really different from the churches I went to. I myself have really enjoyed studying Judaism and easily adapted my worldview. Sadly, a lot of Messianic congregations, with some exceptions, are basically Christian churches with Jewish window dressing in terms of theology.
That being said, I've been seeing a slow but steady rise in Christians discarding supersessionism and wanting to reconnect with the Jewish roots of Yeshua, and I feel that's a really good thing. The main problem is that that a lot of them are diving headfirst into totally alien territory without a whole lot of sound guidance. Hence why we have so many bizarre subgroups in the messianic movements like two-house/ephraimite movement, and sacred name cults.
 

LionofJuda

Member
Do you mind if ask a question here? Since Messianics believe in Jesus why are they not in the Christian forum? They are Christians who just happen to be Jews. Their theology is Christian.

I beg to disagree that those in the Messianic Judaism are Christians much more that they have the same Theology as Christians. First it doesnt mean just because we believe Jesus or more correctly Yeshua that we belong to the Christian groups. Messianic Jews believe in Yeshua but remain faithful in observing the Torah while Christians in general departed from the teachings of the Torah. Likewise Messianic Judaism Theology is very far from being Christian. Do Christians continue to observe the Law of Torah of Moses? No. Do Christians observe Kosher on the Law of Clean and unclean foolds? No. Do christians observe the Shabbat? No although there are few who keep the shabbat but in general christians do not observe the shabbat.
 

LionofJuda

Member
This section should be under Judaism. Judaism has the same beliefs. The only difference is that some Jews accept Yehoshua (Jesus) as their Messiah.

Yes I agree with your statement. In fact what I learned is that the Messianic Jews in Israel eversince had applied for petition for Messianic Judaism to be under or part of Judaism but I dont know if today they were already acknowledge as part or sect of Judaism. Personally I believe MJ should be under Judaism and not under christianity. In the Book of Acts those who believe or accepted Yeshua continue to be zealous of the Torah.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
This section should be under Judaism. Judaism has the same beliefs. The only difference is that some Jews accept Yehoshua (Jesus) as their Messiah.

It's a big "only difference" though. I've talked to Jews online and they get kind of irate at the very idea. Part of the reasoning behind sections and DIR is this sort of interaction.

The Messianic Jews believe the Messiah came and redeemed our sins. The Jews believe the Temple standing unbuilt and the Jews still being oppressed stands as proof that Jesus was not the Messiah.

S.C.J. FAQ: Section 17.3. Countering Missionaries: Countering the Question: Why Don't Jews Believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

There's alot here, actually.

Nvm that:
  • The status of being a prophet has nothing with having a state of Israel, it is about guiding humans to God.
  • Jesus was of the house and lineage of David. That he had a male father is secondary to having God as his father. This would mark him as personally chosen.
  • As Yoda says, there are many ways to interpret prophecy. Christians (and I assume Messianic Jews), believe that Christ did not change the Torah but fulfill it.
The last point is the key one. God is a being who took the formlessness of the universe and changed it. He took reality and divided it into night and day, land and sea, sea and sky, changed the way things were before. "Behold I make all things new." So the idea that "God gave us the law, he cannot possibly change it. We know best as humans, so we need to keep going on with our traditions" is kinda silly.
 
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