This is part of the reason I have a problem with capitalism

[Stevicus]

I think you have no idea how these crimes are handled thus is just a standard socialist rhetoric lacking substance. Robert Stanford got 110 years for fraud and a ponzi scheme. Keith Pound got 740...

A few isolated cases here and there doesn't prove a thing.

 

[Stevicus]

Labor unions are a big part of the "socialism" that the capitalists fear so much, because the capitalists want to gain the maximum return on the capital they've invested, and labor costs cut into that return, significantly. They view labor as an enemy to their goal. And because that goal is based on greed, everything and everyone else becomes antithetical to it's intent, and therefor, an 'enemy' of it. The capitalists goal is fundamentally anti-social. And so they are fundamentally anti-socialist.

Yes, you're right, although ideologically, labor unions are within the framework and tenets of the "free market" economy they extol so much.

 

[Stevicus]

Ok gotcha. The British East India Co., tulip bubble, United Fruit Co.

No question that Euro-American imperialism has radically
changed the world.

So, you've heard of it, then. It's still capitalism, though, since the goal was making money. If the sole goal is making money, then it doesn't matter how you make it. It doesn't matter what one has to do to make it. It doesn't matter how many people one has to kill to make it. Just as long as one makes it.

 

[Revoltingest]

When it comes down to facts that can be shown, sure.
When it comes down to opinion, nah. People will find whatever reason to justify their already pre-established conclusions.

Unsupported opinions rarely change minds anyway.
But there's still opportunity for interesting conversation by discussing values
& goals which lead to the opinions. I recall a fellow engineer, a Bible thump'n
fundie, who opposed abortion, but was conflicted because reading Ayn Rand
led him to also value rights of the individual. He reasoned that a mother
shouldn't be forced to carry & deliver another human being (the fetus) against
her will. To hold opposing beliefs, & to explore them civilly & objectively
bespeaks rare mental prowess.

Btw, I've seen regular fulminating attacks on Rand here (all that damn
individualism), but I've also seen her works induce tolerance & secularism
in people IRL.

 

[PureX]

Yes, you're right, although ideologically, labor unions are within the framework and tenets of the "free market" economy they extol so much.

Capitalists don't really want free markets. They say they do, but what they really want are captive markets without government interference. In a free market the buyer is free NOT TO BUY, from anyone. They can either get what they need on their own, or go without. But in a captive market the buyer has to buy what he needs from someone, and all the sellers know this, so they can collude by their mutual intent and form and maintain their monopolies.

 

[Revoltingest]

Capitalists don't really want free markets. They say they do, but what they really want are captive markets without government interference.

I had no idea that's what I wanted.
Thank you for correcting my false belief about myself.

 

[Shad]

A few isolated cases here and there doesn't prove a thing.

You provided no examples of sentencing compared to the few I did yet I am the one that can not prove anything. Hilarious Try again son.

 

[Stevicus]

You provided no examples of sentencing compared to the few I did yet I am the one that can not prove anything. Hilarious Try again son.

Okay, pops, how about the S&L debacle of the 1980s? Or the Enron scandal? Or the Firestone executives, after being informed of faulty tires, determined that the cost of lawsuits would be less than the cost of a recall?

These are just a few examples I recall from memory. It's not just the sentencing, but the fact that they were able to get away with it for so long without anyone catching on. This tells me there's lax enforcement, not enough oversight, not enough surveillance.

 

[Stevicus]

Capitalists don't really want free markets. They say they do, but what they really want are captive markets without government interference. In a free market the buyer is free NOT TO BUY, from anyone. They can either get what they need on their own, or go without. But in a captive market the buyer has to buy what he needs from someone, and all the sellers know this, so they can collude by their mutual intent and form and maintain their monopolies.

Back in the old days, they would try things like strikebreaking and union-busting to hobble the labor movement. Capitalists fight dirty.

And yes, they do seem to have a severe problem with labor unions, but in a truly capitalist, competitive economy, even the price of labor is subject to negotiation.

But capitalists want a stacked deck. It's like they're playing poker, and they'll look for any angle they can get.

Here is an example of capitalism in action:

 

[Shad]

Okay, pops, how about the S&L debacle of the 1980s?

Caused by government itself.

Or the Enron scandal?

Multiple convictions

[quote\Or the Firestone executives, after being informed of faulty tires, determined that the cost of lawsuits would be less than the cost of a recall? [/quote]

Lost multiple lawsuits. TREAD ACT was passed.

These are just a few examples I recall from memory. It's not just the sentencing, but the fact that they were able to get away with it for so long without anyone catching on. This tells me there's lax enforcement, not enough oversight, not enough surveillance.

People knew about Firestone but didn't report it as they didn't trust the agency responsible for oversight

 

[Stevicus]

Caused by government itself.



Multiple convictions



Lost multiple lawsuits. TREAD ACT was passed.



People knew about Firestone but didn't report it as they didn't trust the agency responsible for oversight

If that's the case, I wonder if they thought the people in that agency were on the take.

But if we're talking about corrupt government officials taking bribes, then they're violating the public trust in favor of their own private gain. It's mostly capitalists in our government, not socialists.

 

[PureX]

Back in the old days, they would try things like strikebreaking and union-busting to hobble the labor movement. Capitalists fight dirty.

And yes, they do seem to have a severe problem with labor unions, but in a truly capitalist, competitive economy, even the price of labor is subject to negotiation.

But capitalists want a stacked deck. It's like they're playing poker, and they'll look for any angle they can get

Capitalism IS a 'stacked deck' because the term capitalism refers to an economic system that gives the capital investor control over commercial enterprise. It's why labor unions are so necessary as a counter to that control. It's also why laws have to be made to protect consumers from that control and oversight must be enforced. Because the invesest's singular goal is the gain the maximum return of the capital invested in the commercial enterprise, and all the decisions they make will be based on that goal, alone. Which makes everyone else involved in the enterprise's needs/desires an impediment to that goal. Wages, quality, safety, and community responsibility are all impediments to the goal of maximizing the profitable return on the capital invested and so will be ignored and diminished in pursuit of that goal by the controlling investor. This is why commercial enterprise in a capitalist system is fundamentally anti-social. It seeks to exploit and abuse everyone involved in it but the controlling capital investor.

 

[Stevicus]

Capitalism IS a 'stacked deck' because the term capitalism refers to an economic system that gives the capital investor control over commercial enterprise. It's why labor unions are so necessary as a counter to that control. It's also why laws have to be made to protect consumers from that control and oversight must be enforced. Because the invesest's singular goal is the gain the maximum return of the capital invested in the commercial enterprise, and all the decisions they make will be based on that goal, alone. Which makes everyone else involved in the enterprise's needs/desires an impediment to that goal. Wages, quality, safety, and community responsibility are all impediments to the goal of maximizing the profitable return on the capital invested and so will be ignored and diminished in pursuit of that goal by the controlling investor. This is why commercial enterprise in a capitalist system is fundamentally anti-social. It seeks to exploit and abuse everyone involved in it but the controlling capital investor.

True. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that most contemporary assessments of capitalism involve looking solely at the USA in this era. However, most of the reason that life in the US is as decent as it has been is precisely because government had to force capitalists to behave responsibly. Laws regarding worker safety, wages/hours, consumer protection, price gouging, product safety, etc. all exist because of government, with the capitalists kicking and screaming the whole time in opposition to such reforms.

Capitalists would never do anything like that of their own volition. The only language they understand is force.

 

[PureX]

True. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that most contemporary assessments of capitalism involve looking solely at the USA in this era. However, most of the reason that life in the US is as decent as it has been is precisely because government had to force capitalists to behave responsibly. Laws regarding worker safety, wages/hours, consumer protection, price gouging, product safety, etc. all exist because of government, with the capitalists kicking and screaming the whole time in opposition to such reforms.

Capitalists would never do anything like that of their own volition. The only language they understand is force.

And even with all those laws and oversight, the investor class have now amassed so much excess wealth that they can literally buy government, and buy the regulation and deregulation that they want. So that many of those social protections have been eliminated. And we are all beginning to suffer the consequences of greed (capitalism) running amok (unrestricted).

 

[PureX]

I would also like to point out to those who claim that capitalism gave us all such a great new standard of living that it was not capitalism that did this. It was the industrial revolution and mass production. It was the fact that two world wars were fought on someone else's soil, destroying their national infrastructure instead of ours. It was the fact that we had plenty of natural resources to exploit without being exploited by others. And it was because of the very socialist enterprise of citizens banding together in locales all across the country and selling off bonds to raise the money needed to build their own public utilities: fresh water systems., electrical systems, sewer systems, telephone systems, etc.,.

When the capitalists built 'infrastructure" they built things like railroads that only their trains could run on. When societies built infrastructure they built roads, and bridges, and utility distribution systems that everyone could use. Those "socialist" enterprises are far more responsible for raising the standard of living in this country than capitalism is, because the capitalists can't ever share anything. They have to hoard and withhold it so as to better exploit our need of it for their own profit.

 

[Audie]

So, you've heard of it, then. It's still capitalism, though, since the goal was making money. If the sole goal is making money, then it doesn't matter how you make it. It doesn't matter what one has to do to make it. It doesn't matter how many people one has to kill to make it. Just as long as one makes it.

Capitalism is not the heart of darkness. You
are very unrealistic.

 

[Stevicus]

Capitalism is not the heart of darkness. You
are very unrealistic.

I just call it as I see it. I don't believe in using rose-colored glasses to look at the world.

 

[Audie]

I just call it as I see it. I don't believe in using rose-colored glasses to look at the world.

Your self- deprecating humour is refreshing.

 

[Stevicus]

Your self deprecating humpur is refreshing.

You're saying it's not very realistic to look at capitalism the way it really is?

 

[Audie]

You're saying it's not very realistic to look at capitalism the way it really is?

I tend to say what I mean.