This is part of the reason I have a problem with capitalism

[Koldo]

I note you didn´t answer the questions, they weren´t rhetorical.

But they weren't pertinent either.
I am defending neither capitalism nor socialism.

 

[Revoltingest]

One can always find a reason to justify the conclusion they held before thinking things through.

If it's a bad argument, then don't buy the argument.
But one shouldn't judge based upon their circumstances.

 

[Shad]

It's a downside of capitalism, but it would not have been possible without capitalism.

This is nonsense. Theft is theft regardless of the system.

 

[Stevicus]

This is nonsense. Theft is theft regardless of the system.

Some systems have stronger disincentives and harsher punishments, though.

 

[Shad]

Some systems have stronger disincentives and harsher punishments, though.

Capitalism does not have a legal code. You are misplacing blame again. That is the failure of government, laws and justice system, which can be a democracy, republic or dictatorship depending on nation-state.

 

[PureX]

Nope. People have responsibilities, your car seller was responsible for determining the worth of his car. He failed that simple requirement.

The buyer is responsible for getting what he wants to buy at the lowest possible price. This isn´t greed, this is the simple market principle at work.

I collect watches, and the first one I bought on ebay I think almost twenty years ago, was faulty. Was the seller at fault ? Nope I was. I didn´t take the time to learn what questions to ask. The seller never said it kept good time, and I never asked. I sure have on the thirty watches I have bought on ebay since then.

What you call greed can be called the reasonable act of conserving resources.

Greed does exist, I don recall the billionaire , but on his deathbed he was asked if he had accumulated enough money, he said no, when asked what more could he want, and he replied, one dollar more.

A true market economy would weed out those who sell less for more, they would die on the vine if sufficient market competition existed.

You are correct, materialism is running rampant, I believe there is a direct correlation between secularism and materialism.

The secular society inherently believes that you only go around once, that there is nothing after our pitifully short life, and that the accumulation of stuff is the only way to be happy, just a Mercedes instead of a Ford, a pool to replace the portable spa, a 5 bedroom home in a better neighborhood to replace the 3 bedroom one, yet happiness will only be found with just one more cool thing, maybe a Harley.

Make no mistake, many marginal believers get caught up in the same thing, they will have it both ways, lotsa stuff now and an after life as well.

I believe institutions reflect the society from which they come.

Greed that you decry exists in every economic system man has devised that functions on a scale larger than person to person barter, from monarchies, to socialism and communism, to national socialism.

I personally believe our system, with all its ugly warts, is better than any of these.

It ain´t the system that the problem, it is all the people, most likely including you and I

This is all just victim-blaming in defense of greed. But I doubt your bias will ever allow you to recognize that.

 

[PureX]

Sooo...are you saying that I can only sell my services and/or goods at an arbitrary price determined by someone like you?

You really didn't read the post, to understand it, did you. You just looked for the easiest counterpoint you could come up with and threw it at the wall.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's a downside of capitalism, but it would not have been possible without capitalism.

Cheating is possible in any economic system.
We can observe this in the real world.
What matters is which economic system serves
us best under which system of government.
The latter places controls upon the former.

Theorizing about economic systems leads most
astray. This is because inherent biases lead us to
see the best in what we want, & the worst in others.
But we have experiments running around the globe
throughout time. Which offer the best results?

 

[Stevicus]

Capitalism does not have a legal code. You are misplacing blame again. That is the failure of government, laws and justice system, which can be a democracy, republic or dictatorship depending on nation-state.

Every society has a legal code, whether capitalist or socialist. How that legal code is implemented and enforced is a political decision, and capitalist ideologues tend to favor light sentences and weak enforcement of white-collar crime. And that's how these things happen.

 

[Stevicus]

Cheating is possible in any economic system.
We can observe this in the real world.
What matters is which economic system serves
us best under which system of government.
The latter places controls upon the former.

Theorizing about economic systems leads most
astray. This is because inherent biases lead us to
see the best in what we want, & the worst in others.
But we have experiments running around the globe
throughout time. Which offer the best results?

That's what makes the capitalists' position so mystifying. After all, most informed, educated individuals should at least have some awareness of history. They should be aware that there are causes and effects of history. They should be aware of what has triggered revolutions in other countries, along with the history of labor unrest in this country.

 

[Audie]

I think it goes up and down the spectrum.



But that would be "whataboutism," wouldn't it?



"Undemonstrated"? The article in the OP was only a single example, although I could come up with many more. In fact, every time I come across a story about capitalists behaving badly, I'll post it in this thread.

Whatabout? Quite so. But rightly, as you
appear to be picking "capitalists" out as uniquely
inclined to base and ignoble behaviour, capitalism
as specially likely to induce or enable such.

Such, I say, is not the case. Nor is it
demonstrated by selective outrage, as you
indicate you intend to pursue.

 

[BSM1]

FDR established the Office of Price Administration to settle such matters.

Office of Price Administration - Wikipedia

So, we've had it before, under the existing Constitution and our capitalist system. It's not unprecedented in the US system.

Obviously you're hoping for someone to take the bait. This agency was set up to control the prices of commodities because of the war. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. Plus you might want to look at the acquittal of Madman Muntz.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's what makes the capitalists' position so mystifying. After all, most informed, educated individuals should at least have some awareness of history. They should be aware that there are causes and effects of history. They should be aware of what has triggered revolutions in other countries, along with the history of labor unrest in this country.

And the socialists' position is better?

 

[Audie]

This is all just victim-blaming in defense of greed. But I doubt your bias will ever allow you to recognize that.

Ah, victims and villains, rather than free agents
pursuing their self interest, each being satisfied
that they are better off after completing the trade.

But your bias would never allow you to see such.

 

[Audie]

Well, I may be wrong, but it looks like China is better off now than they were during the time of the Boxer Rebellion up until the rule of Chiang Kai-Shek. The first half of the 20th century was an absolute disaster for China, but the second half of the 20th century showed marked improvement.

Please note the context of my comment about China.

default to "blame those crooked
heartless capitalists".

We kinda went that route in China, class enemies
and all that rot.


China is better off by far, since the adoption
of capitalism

I am not qualified to attempt a treatise on
Chinese capitalism, but it is far from without
fault, and It may all come crashing down yet,
for reasons similar to what happened to Japan
in the 80s. Or something else.
Certainly corruption and waste is on a vast scale.

 

[Audie]

It's way worse than you know.

I was watching a TV show the other day about a guy
.

And that is how you know so much more
than others about the evils of capitalism.

 

[Audie]

Capitalism does not reward hard work, it protects the rich and rewards the rich.

What a crock of garbage.
Look at Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Germany,
Singapore, for examples, after WW2.

Totally devastated. They tried that worthless
trick of "working hard". Oh, and "capitalism".

You know why the Americans came up with an
"Asian exclusion act"? The Chinese were working
too hard.

They came as peasants, no education, no money,
no nothing but a strong culture and willingness to
work. Their descendants are now among the
best educated and most prosperous in America.

Of course just working hard dont cut it. You have
to work hard, smart. Of course the average
person does not get rich. A) it isimpossible
for everyone to be rich and B) your average
joe dont work smart.

So naturally it is best to blame anyone smarter
and harder working for one's own failure.

 

[Stevicus]

Whatabout? Quite so. But rightly, as you
appear to be picking "capitalists" out as uniquely
inclined to base and ignoble behaviour, capitalism
as specially likely to induce or enable such.

Such, I say, is not the case. Nor is it
demonstrated by selective outrage, as you
indicate you intend to pursue.

Believe what you will; I'm just calling it as I see it.

What I'm not clear on is why there's so much denial coming from the capitalist camp. They believe that capitalists can do no wrong, while believing that socialism is some horrible, ultimate evil that just pops up out of thin air to prey upon weak, helpless, innocent capitalists.

I'm just not sure if they take this approach for propaganda reasons, as a way of playing the victim card and playing on people's emotions. Or if they really do believe such malarkey.

 

[Stevicus]

Obviously you're hoping for someone to take the bait. This agency was set up to control the prices of commodities because of the war. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. Plus you might want to look at the acquittal of Madman Muntz.

What "bait"? I was just pointing out that we already have a history of price controls in this country.

But it wasn't just to control the price of commodities during the war. It was wage and price controls, as well as rent controls. The reason it came about was because capitalism just wasn't cutting the mustard in terms of harnessing the nation's resources and organizing industries to gear towards defense.

It just goes to show that capitalism is more of a fair-weather ideology, whereas if you really need to get something done, socialism is superior.

 

[Audie]

Believe what you will; I'm just calling it as I see it.

What I'm not clear on is why there's so much denial coming from the capitalist camp. They believe that capitalists can do no wrong, while believing that socialism is some horrible, ultimate evil that just pops up out of thin air to prey upon weak, helpless, innocent capitalists.

I'm just not sure if they take this approach for propaganda reasons, as a way of playing the victim card and playing on people's emotions. Or if they really do believe such malarkey.

Of course that is how you see it, I was pointing
out that it is an unevidenced belief. You do
appear to be picking "capitalists" out as uniquely
inclined to base and ignoble behaviour; it is
not a reasonable nor nuanced position.

"Believe what you will", friend, is better applied
to yourself!

"They believe that capitalism can do no wrong"
REALLY? Come now. I dont say that. Shmog
does not say that. Trump doesnt. Nobody does.
It is plain absurd, on the face of it.

Capitalism and democracy are both horribly flawed,
but as Churchill noted, better than any alternative.

As for propaganda, such hyperbolic rhetoric
as...horrible, ultimate evil that just pops up out of thin air to prey upon weak, helpless, innocent capitalists.
really does not help anyone.

Nobody but that poster with the red avatar is wrong
all the time is wrong all the time.

And you are certainly right about the hysterical
reaction of some in broadcast "journalism" or
elsewhere when they hear the word "socialism".

You further do have a proper point which I am going
to try expressing thus-

That you average joe trump voter has been gulled
into such things as the "prosperity gospel" (whether
they go to the church,or even recognize the term)
and blindly support big biz / Trump / Republican
policies coz they want their share and think they
are going to get it.

Of course they wont. It is a con, and the rich shills
like "Hannity" are out there promoting it, shameless
lying pos that he is.

The red trump hat is such an obvious decoy. The
turd is on nobody's side but his own.

A writer for the NYT has quite the story on Trump
and sweetheard / corrupt deals with Deutschebank
btw.

I hope you are by now convinced that (the people
inmvolved in) capitalism can in fact, do no wrong!