This is part of the reason I have a problem with capitalism

[shmogie]

You think a "free" market that had much more regulation would work well? I doubt it. Regulation restricts markets.

Moreover, in the USA, this regulation would have to be managed by the same group of people who can't agree on a budget that would keep the government running from one session to the next.

Regulation should exist only to create transparency, and break up monopolies to ensure a true competitive market.

The transparency would give the consumer a clear knowledge of a company, and give law enforcement a better tool to deal with crime that is now hushed up and buried.

With proper knowledge, and a truly competitive market, the consumers will pick winners and losers based upon a whole host of factors important to them.

Company A is identified as a polluter compared to companies B, C, D, E, F and the consumer wants the pollution to stop, company A will be punished in the market ill it addresses the issue.

 

[joe1776]

Another way you can look at this is that competition helps us in pursuit of skills acquisition and expertise and excellence. Let's say you want to be in the healing professions - you want to be a nurse, you should strive to be the best nurse you can be. And if you do, you will end up being a better nurse than some other nurses.

Competing against others in order to prove we're superior to them is bad. Competing against our lazy side to be the best we can be at some skill is good.

 

[bobhikes]

I would wager that, at some point during this man's life, he very likely has had discussions about the merits of capitalism, and no doubt he would argue that capitalism is the superior system because it "rewards hard work." Yet this guy is a thief, an embezzler, a swindler, and a tax cheat. Not to mention the fact that he's a big game hunter - someone who hunts endangered species just for trophies.

Capitalism does not reward hard work, it protects the rich and rewards the rich. With capitalism if you are experienced and want a fair value you won't get it. The capitalist system will reward the lesser trained prospective employee with a higher salary and pass on your experience. Its done in every field and all companies. Once you get to a max salary you become a weight the company wants to get rid off and all the other companies will offer you much less to start over. Usually they say your experience on X Job doesn't translate 100% to Y Job. They may use Brother Printers and You Company used XEROX printers. It will take you a week or less to adjust but the offer will be significantly less. They will use temps and contractors to minimize the salary rise especially in established fields with a lot of extra workers. Then in fields where they can't get workers at a low enough price they will petition the government for cheap labor as in immigrants and the government will grant there request.

The average person can not win under capitalism. If you get lucky and create something new you have a slime chance to get somewhere on hard work.

 

[metis]

"True capitalism" only exists on paper as all what some call "capitalist economies" are in reality various forms of "mixed economies" that are a blend of capitalism and socialism.

 

[joe1776]

Regulation should exist only to create transparency, and break up monopolies to ensure a true competitive market.

The transparency would give the consumer a clear knowledge of a company, and give law enforcement a better tool to deal with crime that is now hushed up and buried.

With proper knowledge, and a truly competitive market, the consumers will pick winners and losers based upon a whole host of factors important to them.

Company A is identified as a polluter compared to companies B, C, D, E, F and the consumer wants the pollution to stop, company A will be punished in the market ill it addresses the issue.

Your plan makes sense but I see it as currently impractical because the competent, corruption-free government doesn't exist anywhere in the world that can wisely manage the regulations involved.

 

[PureX]

Every time I read the standard arguments in support of capitalism (and usually against socialism), I think of the plethora of examples where capitalists behave badly ...

It's way worse than you know.

I was watching a TV show the other day about a guy who has bought and sold classic cars for over 30 years. And he is now a very wealthy man. He does work hard, and he knows his business very well. He knows exactly what every classic car on his lot is worth in his market, and he has hundreds of them.

A guy comes to him looking to buy a classic car, and picks one out that he likes. The lot owner tells the camera man that the car is worth $15,500 and that he has about $12,000 in the car (the buyer does not hear this), and then the 'negotiating' begins. The seller says he wants $22,000. The buyer says he only planned to pay $15,000. So they haggle, and eventually they agree on $18,000, because the buyer does not know that that car is really worth $15,500. So he thinks he did OK at $18,000.

So what actually happened, is that the seller exploited the buyer's lack of expertise on the price of classic cars, and used it to take an extra $3,000 from him.

This is called GREED by any definition of that term: taking as much as one can get, by whatever means possible, at the expense of someone else. And yet in our culture, this is just thought to be normal business practice. We call it "commerce". But it's not commerce, it's EXPLOITATION. Commerce is people trading goods and services among each other with the intent of increasing the value for those on both sides of the trade. Exploitation is trading with the intent of taking as much as one can possibly get, while giving as little as possible in return. In a word, that is GREED, in action. And our culture is so enamored with greed as a virtue that we can't even see the difference between commerce and exploitation, even though the former is good for everyone, while the latter benefits only the most greedy, cunning, and selfish among us.

And this is my fundamental problem with capitalism: that it rewards our WORST inclinations with ever increasing wealth and power. Thereby enabling the very people among us that we would LEAST want to enable, while it punishes those among us that we ought to be putting in positions of leadership, and looking to for inspiration. Capitalism is nothing more than systematized greed. And greed poisons and ruins everything it touches. Our nation is destroying itself with it's unfettered greed, and the worse things get, the more frightened and greedy we become. It's a self-perpetuating disease and it's going to destroy us.

 

[joe1776]

...So what actually happened, is that the seller exploited the buyer's lack of expertise on the price of classic cars, and used it to take an extra $3,000 from him...

While I agree that greed is a serious sickness, you need to find a better example.

Let's assume that the buyer wasn't a complete dunce since he can afford to buy a classic car. So, it's unlikely that he just walked in off the street cold. Let's assume he did some shopping before he got to this transaction.

Market value is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay. It has nothing to do with what the seller has into it or what he's willing to take. Nothing at all. Your example shows that the seller under-estimated market value at $15,500.

 

[Koldo]

Usually the ones against capitalism are the ones who
are not very good at it.

And usually the ones that favor it the most are the one that either benefit the most from it or expect to.
Self-serving people on all sides.

 

[PureX]

Market value is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay.

That is a tenet based on the justification of systematized greed (capitalism). The proper market value for that car in that area would reasonably be based on the average price paid for that car in that area, and similar cars in that and similar areas. The person most likely to know that value was the man selling it. And yet he chose to exploit the buyer's ignorance to double his own, already very reasonable, profit.

The point here is that we all automatically see no limit to the righteousness of that exploitation. Would it have been OK for the seller to take $10,000 profit on a $15,000 car? How about $20,000? Once we justify exploitation for personal gain, where does it 'self-mitigate'?

The answer is that it doesn't. Which is why capitalism is a runaway train that has to be reigned in by strict laws ensuring commercial fairness. But, of course, the capitalists are using their excessive wealth to strip away all those legal reigns, and to convince us all that it will somehow magically reign itself in. But it will not, because greed has no natural limit. It cannot be satiated. And capitalism is systematized greed.

 

[joe1776]

And usually the ones that favor it the most are the one that either benefit the most from it or expect to.
Self-serving people on all sides.

As a percentage, the number born well-equipped to win at the game of Capitalism is very small. It's nowhere near the number of its proponents.

I think my friend's son might be typical of the major group of proponents. He argues Capitalism with fervor. He's 27, doesn't have a job, and lives in his parents' basement; but in his rich imagination he's a Capitalist Producer.

 

[SugarOcean]

Without exception people who advocate Socialism over the current American model have never actually lived in a Socialist country.
Rather than imagine America should change for their values,because America will never become a Socialist state, those type people should move from America and seek out their ideal; A Socialist nation.

This source allows them to ready their passport and itinerary. World Population Review - Socialist Countries

 

[Koldo]

As a percentage, the number born well-equipped to win at the game of Capitalism is very small. It's nowhere near the number of its proponents.

I think my friend's son might be typical of the major group of proponents. He argues Capitalism with fervor. He's 27, doesn't have a job, and lives in his parents' basement; but in his rich imagination he's a Capitalist Producer.

Like I have said: And usually the ones that favor it the most are the one that either benefit the most from it or expect to.

 

[metis]

Without exception people who advocate Socialism over the current American model have never actually lived in a Socialist country.
Rather than imagine America should change for their values,because America will never become a Socialist state, those type people should move from America and seek out their ideal; A Socialist nation.

This source allows them to ready their passport and itinerary. World Population Review - Socialist Countries

You are showing only extreme forms of socialism whereas there are many that are significantly less extreme, such as with the Scandinavian countries.

All countries in today's world are in reality "mixed economies", even including the ones on he map you posted. On top of that, there is no political system that is intrinsic to socialism, so one could have a totalitarian government while another a representative democracy.

 

[shmogie]

It's way worse than you know.

I was watching a TV show the other day about a guy who has bought and sold classic cars for over 30 years. And he is now a very wealthy man. He does work hard, and he knows his business very well. He knows exactly what every classic car on his lot is worth in his market, and he has hundreds of them.

A guy comes to him looking to buy a classic car, and picks one out that he likes. The lot owner tells the camera man that the car is worth $15,500 and that he has about $12,000 in the car (the buyer does not hear this), and then the 'negotiating' begins. The seller says he wants $22,000. The buyer says he only planned to pay $15,000. So they haggle, and eventually they agree on $18,000, because the buyer does not know that that car is really worth $15,500. So he thinks he did OK at $18,000.

So what actually happened, is that the seller exploited the buyer's lack of expertise on the price of classic cars, and used it to take an extra $3,000 from him.

This is called GREED by any definition of that term: taking as much as one can get, by whatever means possible, at the expense of someone else. And yet in our culture, this is just thought to be normal business practice. We call it "commerce". But it's not commerce, it's EXPLOITATION. Commerce is people trading goods and services among each other with the intent of increasing the value for those on both sides of the trade. Exploitation is trading with the intent of taking as much as one can possibly get, while giving as little as possible in return. In a word, that is GREED, in action. And our culture is so enamored with greed as a virtue that we can't even see the difference between commerce and exploitation, even though the former is good for everyone, while the latter benefits only the most greedy, cunning, and selfish among us.

And this is my fundamental problem with capitalism: that it rewards our WORST inclinations with ever increasing wealth and power. Thereby enabling the very people among us that we would LEAST want to enable, while it punishes those among us that we ought to be putting in positions of leadership, and looking to for inspiration. Capitalism is nothing more than systematized greed. And greed poisons and ruins everything it touches. Our nation is destroying itself with it's unfettered greed, and the worse things get, the more frightened and greedy we become. It's a self-perpetuating disease and it's going to destroy us.

Nope. People have responsibilities, your car seller was responsible for determining the worth of his car. He failed that simple requirement.

The buyer is responsible for getting what he wants to buy at the lowest possible price. This isn´t greed, this is the simple market principle at work.

I collect watches, and the first one I bought on ebay I think almost twenty years ago, was faulty. Was the seller at fault ? Nope I was. I didn´t take the time to learn what questions to ask. The seller never said it kept good time, and I never asked. I sure have on the thirty watches I have bought on ebay since then.

What you call greed can be called the reasonable act of conserving resources.

Greed does exist, I don recall the billionaire , but on his deathbed he was asked if he had accumulated enough money, he said no, when asked what more could he want, and he replied, one dollar more.

A true market economy would weed out those who sell less for more, they would die on the vine if sufficient market competition existed.

You are correct, materialism is running rampant, I believe there is a direct correlation between secularism and materialism.

The secular society inherently believes that you only go around once, that there is nothing after our pitifully short life, and that the accumulation of stuff is the only way to be happy, just a Mercedes instead of a Ford, a pool to replace the portable spa, a 5 bedroom home in a better neighborhood to replace the 3 bedroom one, yet happiness will only be found with just one more cool thing, maybe a Harley.

Make no mistake, many marginal believers get caught up in the same thing, they will have it both ways, lotsa stuff now and an after life as well.

I believe institutions reflect the society from which they come.

Greed that you decry exists in every economic system man has devised that functions on a scale larger than person to person barter, from monarchies, to socialism and communism, to national socialism.

I personally believe our system, with all its ugly warts, is better than any of these.

It ain´t the system that the problem, it is all the people, most likely including you and I

 

[Audie]

And usually the ones that favor it the most are the one that either benefit the most from it or expect to.
Self-serving people on all sides.

"Enlightened self-interest" my friend. And
of course I am one who benefits.

Those who do not benefit much, are not
good at it might consider looking at themselves,
rather than default to "blame those crooked
heartless capitalists".

We kinda went that route in China, class enemies
and all that rot.

 

[shmogie]

Like I have said: And usually the ones that favor it the most are the one that either benefit the most from it or expect to.

What does benefit most mean ? Is this based on a relative scale ?

Lets expand it to the world. Compared to the poor African, are our poor really poor ?

Compared to the resident of Norway, are we better able to keep our money and invest it, or start a business?

What freedoms are we prepared to sacrifice for the honor of being part of the proletariat, in a hyper socialist or communist an ostensibly equal society, where everyone is equal in mediocrity ?

 

[Audie]

It's way worse than you know.

I was watching a TV show the other day about a guy who has bought and sold classic cars for over 30 years. And he is now a very wealthy man. He does work hard, and he knows his business very well. He knows exactly what every classic car on his lot is worth in his market, and he has hundreds of them.

A guy comes to him looking to buy a classic car, and picks one out that he likes. The lot owner tells the camera man that the car is worth $15,500 and that he has about $12,000 in the car (the buyer does not hear this), and then the 'negotiating' begins. The seller says he wants $22,000. The buyer says he only planned to pay $15,000. So they haggle, and eventually they agree on $18,000, because the buyer does not know that that car is really worth $15,500. So he thinks he did OK at $18,000.

So what actually happened, is that the seller exploited the buyer's lack of expertise on the price of classic cars, and used it to take an extra $3,000 from him.

This is called GREED by any definition of that term: taking as much as one can get, by whatever means possible, at the expense of someone else. And yet in our culture, this is just thought to be normal business practice. We call it "commerce". But it's not commerce, it's EXPLOITATION. Commerce is people trading goods and services among each other with the intent of increasing the value for those on both sides of the trade. Exploitation is trading with the intent of taking as much as one can possibly get, while giving as little as possible in return. In a word, that is GREED, in action. And our culture is so enamored with greed as a virtue that we can't even see the difference between commerce and exploitation, even though the former is good for everyone, while the latter benefits only the most greedy, cunning, and selfish among us.

And this is my fundamental problem with capitalism: that it rewards our WORST inclinations with ever increasing wealth and power. Thereby enabling the very people among us that we would LEAST want to enable, while it punishes those among us that we ought to be putting in positions of leadership, and looking to for inspiration. Capitalism is nothing more than systematized greed. And greed poisons and ruins everything it touches. Our nation is destroying itself with it's unfettered greed, and the worse things get, the more frightened and greedy we become. It's a self-perpetuating disease and it's going to destroy us.

Caveat emptor! Dont buy classic cars if you
dont know what you are doing.

In the event, the price was correct. The seller
was happy, the buyer was happy.

Sorry to hear you are greedy and frightened. I am
not.

 

[BSM1]

That is a tenet based on the justification of systematized greed (capitalism). The proper market value for that car in that area would reasonably be based on the average price paid for that car in that area, and similar cars in that and similar areas. The person most likely to know that value was the man selling it. And yet he chose to exploit the buyer's ignorance to double his own, already very reasonable, profit.

The point here is that we all automatically see no limit to the righteousness of that exploitation. Would it have been OK for the seller to take $10,000 profit on a $15,000 car? How about $20,000? Once we justify exploitation for personal gain, where does it 'self-mitigate'?

The answer is that it doesn't. Which is why capitalism is a runaway train that has to be reigned in by strict laws ensuring commercial fairness. But, of course, the capitalists are using their excessive wealth to strip away all those legal reigns, and to convince us all that it will somehow magically reign itself in. But it will not, because greed has no natural limit. It cannot be satiated. And capitalism is systematized greed.

Sooo...are you saying that I can only sell my services and/or goods at an arbitrary price determined by someone like you?

 

[Koldo]

"Enlightened self-interest" my friend. And
of course I am one who benefits.

Those who do not benefit much, are not
good at it might consider looking at themselves,
rather than default to "blame those crooked
heartless capitalists".

We kinda went that route in China, class enemies
and all that rot.

I am afraid I don't consider majorly biased opinions as relevant.

 

[Koldo]

What does benefit most mean ? Is this based on a relative scale ?

Lets expand it to the world. Compared to the poor African, are our poor really poor ?

Compared to the resident of Norway, are we better able to keep our money and invest it, or start a business?

What freedoms are we prepared to sacrifice for the honor of being part of the proletariat, in a hyper socialist or communist an ostensibly equal society, where everyone is equal in mediocrity ?

Let me put what I have said in perspective: It is only natural that if you have a whole lot to lose by a shift to some other economical order that you won't want any significant changes, but it just makes your opinion that much irrelevant. This is the case irrespective of the status quo being capitalism or socialism. If you have a lot to lose then you will tend be very much biased. If you can break that mold I am interested to hear you.