They Are Not Christians!

[IndigoChild5559]

Does their viewpoint make them anti-Semitist?

Simply being influenced by an anti-Semitic idea by itself does not make one a Jew hater. I wouldn't personally classify the ultra orthodox as Jew haters, would you? they are simply misled on this one belief, but in general they are very supportive of Jews being treated well. It's kind of like, Duh.

However, that doesn't mean that there aren't self-hating Jews -- the name we DO give to Jews who ARE anti-Semitic, some of whom begin their defamation of Jews from the vantage point of anti-Zionism.

Ah...... but if, say, a member here would say that Israel's government is seriously out of order over one policy or another, would you consider that member to be anti-Semitic? Loads of Brit Jews are very critical of the Israeli government's actions and policies, you know.

You are correct. Merely criticizing Israel for some of it abhorrent practices is not anti-Semitic. Heck, if criticizing Israel made one an anti-Semite, that would make *me* a self hating Jew. The truth is that virtually all Jews abroad, and a large minority of Jews within Israel have genuine moral issues with the settlements and the way the Netanyahu coalition is running things in general. That's not the problem.

The problem is when the criticism of Israel is so extremist, that it has lost any rational bearings. For example, when the UN Security Council goes out of its way to sanction Israel and only Israel, while giving the terrorist organization Hamas a free reign of hand, it's rather obvious that something is askew. When there is a double standard, and Israel is expected to jump a higher bar than any other modern democracy, something is askew. When Israel is compared to Nazi Germany, which is ridiculous, something is askew. We call this "askewness" the rising head of anti-Semitism in its 21st century form.

Hundreds of cultures have, such as Jews, all North, Central and South Americans, Oz Aborigines etc etc.

I am extremely sensitive to the grievances of these groups. I hope that one day my Government will for example, honor its treaty with the Lakota and give them back the black hills. One of my longest fantasies is coming into unexpected inherited billions and using much of it to buy back as much of that land as possible and giving it to the Lakota. Yes, I understand this very well.

The political left seeks to balance excessive wealth against unacceptable poverty......... your own poor-laws will do the same if Judaism keeps them. Amazing laws, those.

I agree on both counts. Don't peg me for a right winger, I am not. My politics are very complex. I'll never say there isn't good in the left. I simply said that the left gives safe haven to anti-Semites.

This is especially true in Britain, in the Labour Party. I'm sorry, but I've been following it on the edge of my seat for a long time. I've watched in horror as Jeremy Corbyn has made unacceptable remark after remark, and yet the Labour Party CONTINUES to put up with him. It's true that there is a lot of anti-Semitism among the refugees that have immigrated to Britain. But even if you could all somehow manage to deal with the problem of the lack of assimilation of immigrants, you would STILL have a problem with anti-Semitism in England.

Let's put it in perspective. Neither one of us is say that it's on the same level as France. France is just downright scary, get out of there or take a chance that you will die kind of anti-Semitism. I'm NOT saying that England is that bad. What I am saying is that it is bad enough that Jews are already leaving. Sure many have chosen to stay. But there are many more that are uneasy and carefully watching how things go.

According to an article in the Guardian, a third of the Jews in Britain are thinking of emigrating due to fears for their safety because of anti-Semitism. British politics is thought to be the most anti-Semitic in Europe. British politics has worst record for antisemitism in Europe, poll says

Anti-Semitic incidents are at a record high in the UK for a third year in a row. Antisemitic incidents in UK at record high for third year in a row

I used to work around Highgate, North London. Many customers would give me food and drink.......... do I have to finish this?

The only things I know about you so far are that you are a Brit, and anti-Zionist (or at least you think you are) and a Christian. I really don't know what you are referring to above. Please endulge me.

What d'you think happened to my grand-parents and parents?

Am I missing something here? Did you tell me something about your ethnicity that I have forgotten? I am certainly not following you. Please forgive me, I'm going to have to ask you to explain. Again, my apologies.

Do you come to England?
A quarter of a million Jews live in England. England is their home. They belong here. They even had a favorite football team.
There have been scores of massive genocides in the last 70 years.......... we just don't learn, or care, but that's a human disease, right across the whole of mankind.

Hey I understand. I'm thoroughly American, and a California girl to boot. Give me an avocado sandwich and a smoothie, and let's watch Big Bang Theory. Southern California, especially the beach, will always be my home.

But I also know that I have another homeland. I hope that I will be able visit there some day. It is unlikely that I will ever move there. Firstly, I can't afford it on disability. Second, unless my entire family uproots and moves together, I'm unlikely to leave them. Third, although there is real anti-Semitism here (I've experienced it myself), it is not entrenched in the culture. Do you what happened when the Pittsburgh synagogue was shot up? Everyone in the country reached out to us. I had people speak so kindly to me. Muslilms! MUSLIMS went out of their way to be kind. That's the real America. I have no desire to leave.

There are no (or very few) Jews in Scotland, but England has 250,000, and they don'#t need to go anywhere.

There's a reason there's no Jews in Scotland.

Anti-Zionism is telling Israel that it is breaking international law (if it does).

Actually it is NOT anti-Zionism to tell Israel that it is breaking international law. It's not even anti-Semitic (assuming Israel actually is breaking international law).

Anti-Zionism is when you say that Israel has no right to exist as a homeland for the Jews. An anti-Zionist believes, either consciously, unconsciously, or is simply ignorant of the fact, that without a homeland, waves of anti-Semitism will still sweep across the world from time to time, killing countless Jews, and perhaps even endangering the very existence of the Jewish people, and they are fine with that.

So now my question for you is this. Given that you can certainly criticize Israel and not be an anti-Zionist, and given the definition that an anti-Zionist is someone who says Israel has no right to exist as a homeland for the Jews, do you still say you are an anti-Zionist?

France is different. Jews living in Iran are more safe than those living in France, I have heard.

France is just chilling. What do you propose for Jews in France to do? Shall they flee to some other country where the cycle can begin there as well? Why not just let them flee to their homeland!


Wow, spent a lot of time on this post. But you know, this is just an important issue, and I think that having an honest, rational discussion about things helps for cooler heads to prevail. God knows we have way too many hot heads making decisions.

 

[oldbadger]

Simply being influenced by an anti-Semitic idea by itself does not make one a Jew hater. I wouldn't personally classify the ultra orthodox as Jew haters, would you? they are simply misled on this one belief, but in general they are very supportive of Jews being treated well. It's kind of like, Duh.
However, that doesn't mean that there aren't self-hating Jews -- the name we DO give to Jews who ARE anti-Semitic, some of whom begin their defamation of Jews from the vantage point of anti-Zionism.
You are correct. Merely criticizing Israel for some of it abhorrent practices is not anti-Semitic. Heck, if criticizing Israel made one an anti-Semite, that would make *me* a self hating Jew. The truth is that virtually all Jews abroad, and a large minority of Jews within Israel have genuine moral issues with the settlements and the way the Netanyahu coalition is running things in general. That's not the problem.

Wow! When you write you really show your heart.
On the basis of the above, I'm neither an Anti-Zionist nor an anti-Semite. I think Israel is an amazing country although I read about it's government being out-of-order about various things, as you have shown as well.
But I don't think that Mr Corbyn is Anti-Israel....... his meetings with Hamas and Hezbollah leaders were political diplomacy as far as I can figure out. Neither organisation likes the other since one is Shia, the other Sunni. They may even hate the fact that Mr Corbyn visited each other!
I have known three serious Anti-Semites, one an Armenian, One a half-Jewish Nazi fanatic, one an ex Brit soldier who served in Israel/Palestine in the late 1940's. I know what racial hatred looks and acts like, and around here Eastern Europeans, Blacks, Asians and Mid-Easterners have a harder time than Jews. Crowds of Orthodox Jews come here to bathe in the sea and I don't think that they have any trouble at all.

The problem is when the criticism of Israel is so extremist, that it has lost any rational bearings. For example, when the UN Security Council goes out of its way to sanction Israel and only Israel, while giving the terrorist organization Hamas a free reign of hand, it's rather obvious that something is askew. When there is a double standard, and Israel is expected to jump a higher bar than any other modern democracy, something is askew. When Israel is compared to Nazi Germany, which is ridiculous, something is askew. We call this "askewness" the rising head of anti-Semitism in its 21st century form.

I can't answer for the United Nations. One religion on RF is proud to announce that it sits as 'observer' on the Human Rights section of the UN. They think it's indicative of human hope for the future. It's not for me to name that Faith, only for me to say that I am the most aggressive critic of it. Enough about that.

I am extremely sensitive to the grievances of these groups. I hope that one day my Government will for example, honor its treaty with the Lakota and give them back the black hills. One of my longest fantasies is coming into unexpected inherited billions and using much of it to buy back as much of that land as possible and giving it to the Lakota. Yes, I understand this very well.

Very very good. You have a wide view for humanity, far beyond just Judaism.
Do keep some money for yourself from any inheritance. You could take a luxurious cruise through the Med to Israel and go and look around.

I agree on both counts. Don't peg me for a right winger, I am not. My politics are very complex. I'll never say there isn't good in the left. I simply said that the left gives safe haven to anti-Semites.
This is especially true in Britain, in the Labour Party. I'm sorry, but I've been following it on the edge of my seat for a long time. I've watched in horror as Jeremy Corbyn has made unacceptable remark after remark, and yet the Labour Party CONTINUES to put up with him. It's true that there is a lot of anti-Semitism among the refugees that have immigrated to Britain. But even if you could all somehow manage to deal with the problem of the lack of assimilation of immigrants, you would STILL have a problem with anti-Semitism in England.

I will separate the above paras and (if you don't mind) paste them in to another answer, seeking any evidence about Mr Corbyn and alleged anti-Semitism.

Let's put it in perspective. Neither one of us is say that it's on the same level as France. France is just downright scary, get out of there or take a chance that you will die kind of anti-Semitism. I'm NOT saying that England is that bad. What I am saying is that it is bad enough that Jews are already leaving. Sure many have chosen to stay. But there are many more that are uneasy and carefully watching how things go.

Many of us Brits are not fans of the French.

According to an article in the Guardian, a third of the Jews in Britain are thinking of emigrating due to fears for their safety because of anti-Semitism. British politics is thought to be the most anti-Semitic in Europe. British politics has worst record for antisemitism in Europe, poll says
Anti-Semitic incidents are at a record high in the UK for a third year in a row.

Just a sec........ Your focus might just be on anti-Semitism in the UK, but the fact is that Racial and Religious prejudice in general has risen, possibly fueled by the upset over so much immigration over recent years, also by terrorism. My wife's best friend works in a Post Office owned by a Hindu businessman. People shout out at him, calling him dreadful names getting both his originating country and religion wrong. Unfortunately for most offenders my wife's friend is a very big powerful woman who enjoys chucking idiots out of the place.
I don't think that Jews experience nearly as much trouble here as Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Blacks, Mid-Easterners, Gypsies and many others.

The only things I know about you so far are that you are a Brit, and anti-Zionist (or at least you think you are) and a Christian.

I am a Brit.
I am not Anti-Zionist, in fact I have so much respect for that country and its amazing guts.
I am not a Christian. I am a Deist.
And, on the side, A very well known British Jewish Rabbi buried my Brit secular Father, with a Jewish Baron-to-be in attendance. I'll bet that doesn't happen often.

Hey I understand. I'm thoroughly American, and a California girl to boot. Give me an avocado sandwich and a smoothie, and let's watch Big Bang Theory. Southern California, especially the beach, will always be my home.
But I also know that I have another homeland. I hope that I will be able visit there some day. It is unlikely that I will ever move there. Firstly, I can't afford it on disability. Second, unless my entire family uproots and moves together, I'm unlikely to leave them. Third, although there is real anti-Semitism here (I've experienced it myself), it is not entrenched in the culture. Do you what happened when the Pittsburgh synagogue was shot up? Everyone in the country reached out to us. I had people speak so kindly to me. Muslilms! MUSLIMS went out of their way to be kind. That's the real America. I have no desire to leave.

Very good. Nice review for California, right there.

So now my question for you is this. Given that you can certainly criticize Israel and not be an anti-Zionist, and given the definition that an anti-Zionist is someone who says Israel has no right to exist as a homeland for the Jews, do you still say you are an anti-Zionist?

If you ever get time, sort back through my posts and find any words of mine that suggest that Israel has no right to exist. I have a lot of respect for Israel. I've never been a Zionist or anti-Zionist....... just a Brit onlooker. But I respect and admire Israel.

Wow, spent a lot of time on this post. But you know, this is just an important issue, and I think that having an honest, rational discussion about things helps for cooler heads to prevail. God knows we have way too many hot heads making decisions.

Fair enough. I enjoyed thre read.

 

[oldbadger]

............................... the left gives safe haven to anti-Semites...........This is especially true in Britain, in the Labour Party. ................ I've watched in horror as Jeremy Corbyn has made unacceptable remark after remark, and yet the Labour Party CONTINUES to put up with him...............

You have taken note of Mr Corbyn's unacceptable remarks.
Can you remember any of them? It would be helpful if you could show some, or any.
Thankyou.

 

[shmogie]

I think you skimmed it when you should have read it thoroughly. I said, " I'm assuming Paul was referring to the faithful of Israel, those obedient to God. "

OK. No I didn´t skim it. The statements ¨ all Israel will be saved ¨ and ¨ some of Israel will be saved ¨ are not reconcilable.

Thank you for your clarification.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@oldbadger

In my last post to you, I said that a significant minority of Jews in Israel had moral problems with the settlements and how the Palestinians are being treated.

The latest polls show that it is actually the MAJORITY of Jews in Israel (71%) that have these ethical issues.

FYI

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But I don't think that Mr Corbyn is Anti-Israel....... his meetings with Hamas and Hezbollah leaders were political diplomacy as far as I can figure out.

In my view, one does not negotiate with terrorists unless it is to establish a surrender or cease fire.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just a sec........ Your focus might just be on anti-Semitism in the UK, but the fact is that Racial and Religious prejudice in general has risen, possibly fueled by the upset over so much immigration over recent years, also by terrorism.

You are absolutely correct. There is an old saying that Jews are the canary in the mines. We may be the first to get it, but we aren't the last. Have you noticed that hate seems to come and go in broad sweeps covering huge territories? Odd that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You have taken note of Mr Corbyn's unacceptable remarks.
Can you remember any of them? It would be helpful if you could show some, or any.
Thankyou.

If I were not sick with pneumonia, I would be happy to. But many things just seem too much right now. The news is now old, meaning that many of the sources won't come up at the top of google anymore.

Surely you have followed this in the news? There was a question of whether he would remain the head of the party because of his remarks. You don't strike me as someone who wouldn't have been aware.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK. No I didn´t skim it. The statements ¨ all Israel will be saved ¨ and ¨ some of Israel will be saved ¨ are not reconcilable.

Thank you for your clarification.

They are reconcilable provided two conditions are met:
1. "All" is being used as a general remark and not as an absolute
2. "Israel" refers to the basic majority of Israel.

 

[lukethethird]

Anyhow, it has been a week for me... On the other forum that I post on it is mostly fundamentalist Christians and atheists and the atheists are my friends... As a Baha'i, I have been told I am going to hell and now I have been categorized as a demon along with my atheist friends. My friends said they are all leaving that forum after next week and coming to my forum... they normally go back and forth.

That's just not true, atheists don't have any friends. They can't have friends because they know a friend could end up in Hell just by association, that is why atheists are lone wolves to this day.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's just not true, atheists don't have any friends. They can't have friends because they know a friend could end up in Hell just by association, that is why atheists are lone wolves to this day.

I know you don't believe this, it's so ridiculous.

 

[lukethethird]

I know you don't believe this, it's so ridiculous.

Well, it's my story and I'm sticking to it, and you better watch yours before a house falls on you too.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger

In my last post to you, I said that a significant minority of Jews in Israel had moral problems with the settlements and how the Palestinians are being treated.

The latest polls show that it is actually the MAJORITY of Jews in Israel (71%) that have these ethical issues.

FYI

Very good, and thank you for the info.
The thing is, in the United Kingdom, if Jeremy Corbyn makes such comments or holds such opinions he is painted as an anti Semite.

I'm pleased to hear about the percentages in Israel.

 

[oldbadger]

In my view, one does not negotiate with terrorists unless it is to establish a surrender or cease fire.

All the countries we hate are terrorists, all the countries we like are the fountains of humanity.

The mark of real guts and integrity in a politician is shown when they will communicate with everybody as much as possible, regardless of what the mob may call them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, it's my story and I'm sticking to it, and you better watch yours before a house falls on you too.

That atheists don't have friends? You can't possibly be serious. Have you ever actually met an atheist? Have you talked to the atheists in here? Ask them if they have friends.

 

[oldbadger]

You are absolutely correct. There is an old saying that Jews are the canary in the mines. We may be the first to get it, but we aren't the last. Have you noticed that hate seems to come and go in broad sweeps covering huge territories? Odd that.

In the UK Jews probably are NOT the first to get it, nor the LAST to get it.

I'll bet that young Middle-Eastern and Asian folks have had it much worse here in the last few years. Young women wearing burkhas, and head-scarves for instance.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Very good, and thank you for the info.
The thing is, in the United Kingdom, if Jeremy Corbyn makes such comments or holds such opinions he is painted as an anti Semite.

I'm pleased to hear about the percentages in Israel.

Jeremy Corban goes way past criticizing Israel.

Dog gone it, oldbadger, you are making me work when I should be taking medicine and sleeping this off, or at least just answering easier posts.

This is just a limited response. Like I said, a full response would require a LOT of research. But this was on the first page of websites that came up when I googles "Jeremy Corbyn anti-Semitic."

"Mr. Corbyn has described the constitutionally genocidal Hamas as his “friends.” He’s appeared on stage with inveterate anti-Semites. He’s defended a mural that depicted hooknosed bankers running the world. He’s attended a wreath-laying ceremony that celebrated the perpetrators of the Munich Olympics massacre....

What Mr. Corbyn said, however, was different [than other speakers at a conference]. While bemoaning the activities of a group of [English] Zionists, he identified two problems. “One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either,” he said. “I think they need two lessons, which we can help them with.”....

This was classic anti-Semitism. Here were a group of Jews with whom Mr. Corbyn has a political disagreement. And he smeared them not on the basis of that disagreement but on the basis of their ethnicity. He accused them of failing to assimilate English values, of not fitting in, of still being a bit foreign. Had they been Christian Zionists, he could not have insulted them in this way."
Opinion | Getting Off the Fence About Jeremy Corbyn’s Anti-Semitism

 

[oldbadger]

If I were not sick with pneumonia, I would be happy to. But many things just seem too much right now. The news is now old, meaning that many of the sources won't come up at the top of google anymore.

Surely you have followed this in the news? There was a question of whether he would remain the head of the party because of his remarks. You don't strike me as someone who wouldn't have been aware.

You get better soon! Pneumonia is horrible and dangerous. Get well.

Yes, I've followed the news about Mr Corbyn, and I have not supported him before recent times.

Nobody, absolutely nobody has ever been able to describe anything that Mr Corbyn has said or done which could be shown as anti-Semitic. It was all hot air, I reckon. Even when you get better you won't be able to post a sentence of evidence against him.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, has been able to show that all those the reports about Labour members' actions or comments were true. One or two Labour politicians have resigned over their actions or comments, but the vast majority of accusations have been bulldust.

We, you and I have already established that criticising Israel for it's policies is not antri-Semitic, and things like claiming that Trump is supported by many Orthodox Jews is not anti-Semitic, etc etc.

Search as you may (when you get better) you will be hard put to dig up the evidence against Mr Corbyn.

There you are. That's a simple challenge for when you get better.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

All the countries we hate are terrorists, all the countries we like are the fountains of humanity.

This is nonsense. There is a definition of terrorism, and a group either meets it, or it doesn't.

Terrorism is when a group uses violence to create terror, in order to effect political change.

A regular war, for example, is not terrorism by that definition. Lawful protest is not terrorism. Non-violent protest doesn't meet the criteria.

Are you so drowning in disillusionment? Surely you still see the good in humanity as well as the bad?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In the UK Jews probably are NOT the first to get it, nor the LAST to get it.

I'll bet that young Middle-Eastern and Asian folks have had it much worse here in the last few years. Young women wearing burkhas, and head-scarves for instance.

I look at things on a much larger scale, viewing the West as a territory, or at least Europe. Europe (and England) was letting in Muslim refugees left and right while anti-Semitism was rising.