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Featured They Are Not Christians!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by oldbadger, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    If that is true, why do your own scriptures say, "All Israel will be saved." Romans 11:26.

    All the prophets of the Tanakh tell us that God will ultimately restore us and bless us when bringing forth the messianic era. Obviously Paul believed the prophets. Why don't you?
     
  2. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Right. One goes to a state university for a B.A., 4 years, then gets a bogus graduate degree on line.

    Get real. As I said, attacking an individual directly or by innuendo shows reasoning weakness and a streak of meanness.
     
  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Who or what is ¨ all Israel ¨, at what point in time ? Does it include the Jews who collaborated with the naziś in the holocaust ?

    Are all Jews through history so pure, that they cannot be lost ?

    Did God make genes a get out of jail card ?

    I am loath to bring up the fact that Rabbinical Judaism is not the structure of worship that God laid down for Israel.

    What blood sacrifices exist for Jews for the remission of sin ?

    Paul said, along with God, that without the spilling of blood there is no remission of sin, why don´t you believe them ?
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    All Israel means ALL Israel, down through time and around the world. I'm assuming Paul was referring to the faithful of Israel, those obedient to God. But goodness, it can't be only referring to Jews who believe in Jesus, because you can't cut out 99% of Israel, and call the remaining part "all." It's got to make sense.

    Hosea gave the instructions for us for in times when there is no temple. He said, "Let the words of our lips (prayers) be as bullocks (sacrifices)." Hosea 14:2 REmember also what it says in Psalms 40:6 in your Bible "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

    Why don't I believe Paul? Because I'm not a Christian. The NT is not part of my Tanakh. It would be like a Latter Day Saint asking you why you don't believe in the Book of Mormon.
     
    #144 IndigoChild5559, Apr 8, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!” (Matthew 23:37-39)

    In the 2,000 years since Jesus spoke those words, the Jewish nation has never "blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name". They have never repented of their part in Jesus' death.

    Then we have James's statement in Acts 15:14...."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."

    Paul identified these ones as "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)....not speaking about Jews but of Gentile Christians too. These are 'spiritual' Israel. (Romans 2:28-29) God abandoned fleshly Israel when they murdered the last one sent to correct them, as Jesus said they had done too many times before.



    Yes, and a remnant responded to Jesus. The foundation members of Christianity were all Jews. They were given first opportunity to take up positions as rulers in God's Kingdom, but when the nation failed to produce the numbers, Gentiles were chosen to complete the arrangement.



    After God abandoned Judaism in the first century, (the reason why a third temple has never been built) despite being repatriated to their homeland in the middle of last century, they have never enjoyed a peaceful existence there. Jerusalem is a hotbed of religious disputes. They have not experienced God's blessing or his protection. They are spillers of blood just like all the rest. They have allied themselves with secular nations just as their forefathers did because they cannot count on their God to support them.

    Christianity is no longer about a geographical location...it is a global family united by their faith in the God of Jesus.



    The tribes of Israel spoken about in Revelation are 'spiritual' Israel...those who accepted Jesus as the Christ and abandoned that corrupt religious system to drown in their own prideful errors.

    Individuals of all nations can come to Christ, including Jews (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) ....but as a nation, the Jews lost their place because they could never remain faithful to their God.

    I believe that John the Baptist's words apply today as they did back in the first century....

    "Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

    They never produced the fruits....:( Many in Christendom don't either. [/QUOTE]
    I agree with much of what you say.

    However, lets look at Paul´s famous illustration of the olive tree.

    He tells us of the olive tree,the branches representing the Jewish faith and people, he tells us of its roots, representing the very beginning of Gods relationship with man after the fall, and its trunk representing the patriarchs.

    Paul explains that we Christians are grafted in to this tree , replacing some branches that were removed.

    A graft always remains what it was, it does not genetically become that which it was grafted into. Lemon branches of type A grafted into a lemon tree of type B will always remain type A branches, and produce type A fruit.

    By the same token, the type B tree will not become a type A tree because type A branches were grafted on to it, so we have a dichotomy, Christians never become Jews, and Jews never become Christians, so how is this resolved ?

    I mentioned eschatology, and there we find the resolution.

    There is extremely strong evidence to believe that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation are not JWś as you believe, or SDA´s as they believe, but rather are Messianic Jews, Christians, who come out of Israel after having preached with fire not seen since the original Pentacost. After converting masses in Israel, they will spread out across the world preaching of the Messiah.

    So, in the end, Gods promise to the Jews will be kept, the Messiah will save those who choose to follow him, just as we Gentiles will be saved.

    There will be one kingdom on earth, one King, and one faith, forever.
     
  6. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    So then, God will save Jewish unrepentant murderers, child rapists, pork eaters, etc., etc. ? Genes really do matter, huh ?
     
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  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I think you skimmed it when you should have read it thoroughly. I said, " I'm assuming Paul was referring to the faithful of Israel, those obedient to God. "
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Where did you get your masters of divinity? I mean there is a HUGE difference in schools. I am not attacking you.. I am just flummoxed by your limited view..
     
  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Does their viewpoint make them anti-Semitist?

    I think not. Your own example crushes your own belief about this.

    Ah...... but if, say, a member here would say that Israel's government is seriously out of order over one policy or another, would you consider that member to be anti-Semitic? Loads of Brit Jews are very critical of the Israeli government's actions and policies, you know.

    Hundreds of cultures have, such as Jews, all North, Central and South Americans, Oz Aborigines etc etc.
    The Oz government handed lands to the aborigines as theirs, and years later took 'em back

    The political left seeks to balance excessive wealth against unacceptable poverty......... your own poor-laws will do the same if Judaism keeps them. Amazing laws, those.
    But yes, Apostle John's gospel and Revelation was either a incitement to commit hatred or mental derangement in my opinion. Sadly most Creeds focus on John rather than, say, Mark, which shows a Baptist and Jesus on missions FOR the Jewish people.

    The G-John and Revelation charge is no theory. Both books make me feel sick.

    It doesn't matter what folks do, the outsiders will knock 'em and put 'em down.

    I used to work around Highgate, North London. Many customers would give me food and drink.......... do I have to finish this?

    What d'you think happened to my grand-parents and parents?

    Do you come to England?
    A quarter of a million Jews live in England. England is their home. They belong here. They even had a favorite football team.
    There have been scores of massive genocides in the last 70 years.......... we just don't learn, or care, but that's a human disease, right across the whole of mankind.

    There are no (or very few) Jews in Scotland, but England has 250,000, and they don'#t need to go anywhere.

    There have been Jewish Barons in the UK House of Lords since the 19th century, still are.


    We want our Jews to stay, they are an important part of our country's community. I don't mind that thdey keep to themselves, so does my wife.....very isolationist, and I love her more than all else. :)

    No.
    Anti-Zionism is telling Israel that it is breaking international law (if it does).
    Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jewish people.

    France is different. Jews living in Iran are more safe than those living in France, I have heard.
     
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you are probably flummoxed by most things.
     
  11. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    Is this sort of response that they taught at your divinity school? I am sure she will be both impressed and daunted by this.
     
  12. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect you are not an English speaker as your first language, and I also suspect that you are an immigrant from a culture other than American or western European.

    You don´t seem to understand the cultural intricacies of the use of English.

    You accuse me of having a limited ¨view¨. Do you not understand that you have no foundation or authority make that statement ? In fact, most of my views are consistent throughout Christianity.

    Your statement that I have a ¨limited view¨ means you don t understand other views, an accusatory false statement.

    If you had said in YOUR OPINION I have a limited view, it would have been acceptable.

    When I disagreed with you regarding Israel as the beast in Revelation, a position few Christians hold, you accused me of trying to pull something, another accusatory statement.

    No, you are worked up about a seminary, which is irrelevant to anything.

    The Bible, except for prophecy, is open and unambiguous. Anyone who can read and has a normal IQ can understand it.

    If you want to discuss the the gnostics or the ascetics, or the open view of God, or the oneness doctrine, or Arianism I can do that.

    However our discussion was not about these or a myriad of other concepts, groups, or history.

    The discussion was about fundamental Christian doctrines, for which one only needs to actually STUDY the Bible to find.

    What seminary, or university I may or may not have attended is irrelevant.
     
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  13. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    Wow! Did you exhaust your entire arsenal of irrelevant responses in one post?
     
  14. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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  15. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    More pearls from divinity school I take it.

    No. A drive by insinuates a false reason for my response. Your follow up post to mine tells me that I was correct in my assessment about the nature of your pithy ad hominem response to another poster.

    Carry on.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The unfortunate reality is that some can study and know a great deal about Christianity but choose not to live out the teachings. IOW, talk is cheap, and Jesus said we'll "know them by their fruits".

    Some self-professed Christians seem to not much want to adhere to Jesus' teachings on "love one another as I have loved you". As a former priest at our church used to say, "Joe thought he was going to heaven for what he did on Sunday but went to hell for what he did on Monday".
     
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  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Yep, a pithy ad hominem, I admit it. I suspect you haven´t reviewed my continuing exchanges over months with this individual.

    My ad hominem was the result of a moment of frustration with those of my, correspondent, and there have been quite a few.

    I have even carefully defined ad hominem attacks for this person, and explained that ideas are the issues, not the people who presents the ideaś. To no avail.

    I mused on cultural and linguistic differences as a reason why this poster responds as they do, often.
     
  18. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I have had no difficulty understanding her and I get the evidence she presented. She impresses as very knowledgeable and perceptive.

    It may be that facts she presents are easier for me to accept, since I do not hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible.

    I do appreciate what you confess here. That speaks well of you.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I believe you may have taken the illustration a bit further than the scriptures themselves infer.

    If Paul said that a Jew is no longer one on the "outside" but a "Jew" is one on the "inside" by circumcision of the heart, then people of the nations became part of "the Israel of God".

    Paul wrote.....

    "For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.. . . .

    You who take pride in law, do you dishonor God by your transgressing of the Law? 24 For “the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations because of you,” just as it is written.

    25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the physically uncircumcised person will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who are a transgressor of law despite having its written code and circumcision. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."


    First of all we do not believe that the 144,000 are all "Jehovah's Witnesses" as in the modern day definition. We call ourselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" because all of God's faithful ones of old, served in that capacity. (Isaiah 43:10) Even Jesus us called "the Faithful and True Witness". (Revelation 3:14) Paul calls all the faithful ones in pre-Christian times "a great cloud of witnesses". (Hebrews 12:1)

    As to who these 144,000 forming the "tribes of Israel" are, we know that they are both Jewish and non-Jewish disciples of Christ, because Paul called his Christian brothers, "the Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16)

    In Matthew 25, in his illustration about the "sheep and the goats", Jesus said to the sheep....."Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." (Matthew 25:31-46)

    So there is Christ, his "brothers", and those who render them assistance in their earthly role because of the difficult course they must follow in imitation of their Master. (Romans 8:17) Christ's brothers are the 'spiritual Jews'...the 144,000.

    Messianic Jews are not Christians.....they will never accept that label because of their pride in identifying as Jews.....sort of like having a foot in both camps. One can be a 'Jewish Christian' because that is what all of the first Christians were. Paul wrote the book of Hebrews to his fellow Jewish Christians.

    The "new covenant" no longer required works of the Law. One had to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in order to qualify for a position in heaven under that new arrangement. So one set of rules applies to all, and all of Christ's "brothers" (144,000) will be resurrected first and will rule with him from heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

    Jesus related an illustration in Matthew 22:1-14 that I believe shows the situation of the Jews from God's perspective.
    It is like the illustration of the "Good Samaritan" which must have galled the Jewish leaders, because a hated Samaritan was the hero of the story. There was a reason why those Jewish leaders were painted in such a bad light in his teachings. Those who clung to the teachings of the Pharisees lost out on filling the positions in heaven that God had reserved for them. God then turned to the Gentiles to fill the numbers. We see "the Israel of God" as all who are Jehovah's Witnesses both past and present who will go to heaven. They are chosen by God so no one can volunteer for that role. But first they must be baptized as Christians and anointed with God's spirit.

    You may also understand that we see two distinct groups in Revelation 7.....there are 144,000 and also an unnumbered "great multitude" who are also attributing salvation to God and the Lamb. The angel told John that "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" so we see them as survivors of the end times who will become the nucleus of the Kingdom's subjects on earth, soon to be joined by those whom Jesus will call out of their tombs, which will be all the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous. (John 5:28-29)

    Yes, we see the same result but with a different way of arriving at our conclusions. The "Jews" in this case are the "remnant" of fleshly Jews who followed Christ in the first century, and any who became Christian disciples, chosen by God for rulership, before the end of the present system.

    The "great multitude" are made up of people of all nations who accept Jesus as the Christ and obey his teachings. These will be the subjects of the Kingdom here on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4) All will return to the way it was in Eden. As we see it, Jesus came to get back what we lost in the beginning....everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth. I long to live there.....
     
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  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I agree with much of what you say.

    However, lets look at Paul´s famous illustration of the olive tree.

    He tells us of the olive tree,the branches representing the Jewish faith and people, he tells us of its roots, representing the very beginning of Gods relationship with man after the fall, and its trunk representing the patriarchs.

    Paul explains that we Christians are grafted in to this tree , replacing some branches that were removed.

    A graft always remains what it was, it does not genetically become that which it was grafted into. Lemon branches of type A grafted into a lemon tree of type B will always remain type A branches, and produce type A fruit.

    By the same token, the type B tree will not become a type A tree because type A branches were grafted on to it, so we have a dichotomy, Christians never become Jews, and Jews never become Christians, so how is this resolved ?

    I mentioned eschatology, and there we find the resolution.

    There is extremely strong evidence to believe that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation are not JWś as you believe, or SDA´s as they believe, but rather are Messianic Jews, Christians, who come out of Israel after having preached with fire not seen since the original Pentacost. After converting masses in Israel, they will spread out across the world preaching of the Messiah.

    So, in the end, Gods promise to the Jews will be kept, the Messiah will save those who choose to follow him, just as we Gentiles will be saved.

    There will be one kingdom on earth, one King, and one faith, forever.[/QUOTE]

    144,000 is just a number meaning a whole lot of people. It shouldn't be taken literally. Jesus said over and over again that his kingdom is a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one.
     
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