1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured They Are Not Christians!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by oldbadger, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...









    The Woman = Jerusalem




    The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

    You do know that Queen Berneice and Titus were having and affair. She was the granddaughter of Herod.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    9,033
    Ratings:
    +1,874
    Religion:
    Christian
    So, please give verse by verse citations for this.

    I have been a Bible teacher, preacher and Elder. I have studied the history of Christianity formally.

    I have read books on eschatology and prophetic interpretation for 50 years, from different Christian denominations.

    If I am pulling anything, it would only be the exposure of how you are misinformed.

    I could be wrong, prove it.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    I am so sorry... What sort of church?

    The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...




    The Woman = Jerusalem




    The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

    Some of these are double accusations.. Queen Berneice was having and affair with Titus.. You do know who they are, don't you?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    3,848
    Ratings:
    +1,656
    Thats the funniest thing i ever heard about that, a christian church inviting cold, hardened sinners to the services. Most churches only deal in affluency. They pick the people with the best dress for success. The preferred sinner! They'd be in shock how radical the Bible is about spreading the Gospel of salvation. Saves to the uttermost, and Jonah's unwillingness to preach to his enemies at first. Paul was executed by the Romans even. and so forth!

    The cards dont fall fast enough on this religion.

    Doing good in the face of evil is a noble endeavour. But loving your enemies because you were once as they. Generalizing the whole of humanity under sin. Where is the evidence that this is so? How would you justify Gandhi in hell, and Dahmer in heaven. I mean the uttermost wicked sinner you can think of has this opportunity for salvation, and all the people that have died never being as bad that never accepted Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

    It begs the question of where's the reality in all of this?

    I think its pretty darn sinful to not recognize the goodness of a non believer.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    9,033
    Ratings:
    +1,874
    Religion:
    Christian
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    The army of Titus was made up of natives of the countries surrounding Israel .. from Syria and the Levant, Persia.. They fought with the Romans and that's well-documented.

    Christians just aren't required to be uneducated.

    Ezekiel 16 is very compelling evidence that Jerusalem is the whore. Here are some excerpts:



    Ezekiel 16:1-2, "And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, `Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, and thou hast said:"
    Ezekiel 16:7-8, "...And comest in with an excellent adornment, Breasts have been formed, and thy hair hath grown -- And thou, naked and bare! And I pass over by thee, and I see thee, And lo, thy time is a time of loves,"

    Ezekiel 16:15-18, "And thou dost trust in thy beauty, And goest a-whoring because of thy renown, And dost pour out thy whoredoms On every passer by -- to him it is. And thou dost take of thy garments, And dost make to thee spotted high-places, And dost go a-whoring upon them, They are not coming in -- nor shall it be! And thou dost take thy beauteous vessels Of My gold and My silver that I gave to thee, And dost make to thee images of a male, And dost go a-whoring with them, And dost take the garments of thy embroidery, And thou dost cover them, And My oil and My perfume thou hast set before them."

    Ezekiel 16:20, "And thou dost take thy sons and thy daughters Whom thou hast born to Me, And dost sacrifice them to them for food. Is it a little thing because of thy whoredoms,"

    Ezekiel 16:22, "And with all thine abominations and thy whoredoms,..."

    Ezekiel 16:25-26, "At every head of the way thou hast built thy high place, And thou dost make thy beauty abominable, And dost open wide thy feet to every passer by, And dost multiply thy whoredoms, And dost go a-whoring unto sons of Egypt, Thy neighbours -- great of appetite! And thou dost multiply thy whoredoms, To provoke Me to anger."

    (There's more if you are unfamiliar with Ezekiel)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    9,033
    Ratings:
    +1,874
    Religion:
    Christian
    The majority of humans will be lost, the majority of gentiles will be lost. the majority of Jews may be lost.
    This isn´t our call.

    I am quite familiar with the eschatology of your organization, at least for today. Lets agree to disagree on this issue.

    God promised to Israel that they would be His special people, forever.

    That promise hasn´t changed, and for each disaster that occurred throughout the history of Judaism, a remnant remained.

    Think about it, while great empires and peoples no longer exist, the Jews always a tiny number of people, a remnant has always has remained.

    The Egyptians could not destroy them, nor Babylon, nor Rome, nor Hitler.

    A tiny group of Jews defeated the Arab armies bent on destroying them, not once, but three times. Since 1948 Their God promised homeland is theirs.

    I believe Revelation teaches that Messianic Jews, Christians, will arise with the last great call to come out of Babylon, for all, but especially for the Jews.
     
  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    9,033
    Ratings:
    +1,874
    Religion:
    Christian
    These are Ezekielś direct testimony to the people in his time.

    He is using metaphor to heavily chastise the people in that place and in that time.

    There is no indication that this chastisement is in any way related to the end time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

    I an familiar with Ezekiel.

    With respect, you have assumed something, and are cherry picking verses out of context to support your assumption.

    Did you know that Joseph smoked ? The Bible says he lit off a camel.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Smoked? There were few camels in Palestine.. The camel saddle hadn't been invented .. Abraham was a donkey caravan.

    I can't believe you taught Sunday school. What denomination are you?

    Sadly, its just so unusual for preachers to have much education. Most don't.. or they attended some bible college akin to the Moody Institute or the Dallas Theological Seminary. God knows those fools have done some fine damage.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    9,033
    Ratings:
    +1,874
    Religion:
    Christian
    Personal attacks are the refuge of those who cannot win an argument with facts.

    This conversation has ended.

    BTW, in my denomination, preachers must have an M. Div. Look it up if you don´t know what it means.
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    5,058
    Ratings:
    +2,129
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Lovely. If I had any doubts about your anti-Semitism, this clinched it.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    35,709
    Ratings:
    +4,996
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    You beat me to it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    18,516
    Ratings:
    +6,125
    Religion:
    deist
    Nah! He smoked Gauloises.
    p
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    18,516
    Ratings:
    +6,125
    Religion:
    deist
    I've been reading up.......
    Don't you mean Anti-Zionism?
    I read that many Jews are anti-Zionist.....?
     
  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    18,516
    Ratings:
    +6,125
    Religion:
    deist
    Ummmmm.......... Master of Divinity?

    Thing is, I'd bet that any JW Elder could engage you in a really interesting and strong discussion about any book in the bible, and all they have to show is their time and life in their faith.

    It's good to study and gain qualifications, but the knowledge is all that matters, not the documents. True?
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    You can get a Masters in Divinity on line or you can get it from a top school... or god forbid, you could get it from the Dallas Theological Seminary.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Has NOTHING to do with anti-Semitism.. Read your Torah.

    The language is hyperbolic but consistent.

    Several Old Testament prophets referred to Jerusalem as being a spiritual harlot and a mother of such harlotry (Book of Isaiah 1:21; Book of Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:1–11; Book of Ezekiel 16:1–43; Ezekiel 23,
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    5,058
    Ratings:
    +2,129
    Religion:
    Judaism
    There are almost no Jews that are anti-Zionist, and those who are anti-Zionist are almost all super ultra orthodox -- they believe only the messiah can create the state of Israel. My own opinion here--they are a bunch of sadly misled people and they don't speak for the overwhelming majority of us.


    I know a lot of Jews, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Secular, and all the Jews I know are Zionists. Zionism simply means we believe in the right of Israel to exist as a homeland for the Jews.

    Let's look at this rationally.

    PROBLEM: Jews have historically been persecuted and killed.

    It hasn't been just one group. Sure Christians came at us the hardest and most persistently. But there have certainly been others, such as the communists, fascists, etc. Right now our greatest danger comes from the political left and Asian Islam.

    Different theories have been proposed as to why Jews have been persecuted. Proposed and disproven.j

    For example, in some places Jews were not allowed any other trade than money lending and so went into banking -- there we became resented for doing well with money. But other places where we had other trades and remained poor, we were resented for being dirty and poor.

    Or some said that we were resented because we isolated ourselves and didn't try to fit in. So the whole Reform movement started and the Jews of Germany integrated and thought of themselves as Germans who even celebrated Christmas. Yet it didn't stop Hitler for killing

    Rich, poor, we die. Struggling, successful, we die. Apart, assimilated, we die.

    It seems like all the options for living in the land of others are used up. Except for two.

    Stop being Jews. Commit cultural genocide by pretending we are not Jews, not transmitting any knowledge onto our children, so that our descendants will never know their heritage. Yes, I use the word genocide, because although no dying involved, this most assuredly would destroy the Jewish people as much as Hitler.

    LEAVE. Form a homeland for the Jews, one based on our national history (IOW not Scotland or New Guinea or Siberia) and go there. Even if other nations put pressure on us, there is something to be said for it being OUR nation, and defending our home turf, rather than languishing in someone else's back yard. This is the Zionist option.

    So that's it. Those are the only three options.
    1. continue living in the lands of non-Jews and being persecuted there.
    2. commit cultural genocide, meaning that the Jewish people will cease to exist
    3. Create a homeland for the Jews and go there--Zionism.

    When you look at it that way, there is only one sensible option. Only one. Well, I should say there is only one unless you WANT the Jews gone.

    And that's why anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Because the other two options literally hurt the Jewish people, even threaten our very survival.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    5,058
    Ratings:
    +2,129
    Religion:
    Judaism
    That is a whole other animal than the Whore of Babylon in Revelation. They are not related at all.

    Still waiting for you to share your denomination.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,888
    Ratings:
    +7,022
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I am aware of that. But I also believe that a great many who identify as Christians will be lost as well. Jesus' stinging rejection of the "many" on judgment day is....."I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:21-23) These are the ones who acknowledge him as their "Lord" and pleadingly relate all the things that they did 'in his name'. They are obviously fooling themselves. :(

    I don't believe that his promise to Abraham had its total fulfillment with fleshly Israel. Here's why.....

    When the Pharisees came to witness John's baptism, they received a stinging rebuke from him.
    Matthew 3:7-10 says......"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

    It doesn't sound as if being born as a son of Abraham is the prime thing from God's perspective. If God can raise up children for Abraham from the stones, then why would he put up with a wayward nation who continually broke their covenant with him? He said that the axe was poised to cut them down. No good fruit was forthcoming.

    Jesus too spoke of Israel being 'abandoned' by God because of their refusal to be corrected by his prophets.

    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!” (Matthew 23:37-39)

    In the 2,000 years since Jesus spoke those words, the Jewish nation has never "blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name". They have never repented of their part in Jesus' death.

    Then we have James's statement in Acts 15:14...."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."

    Paul identified these ones as "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)....not speaking about Jews but of Gentile Christians too. These are 'spiritual' Israel. (Romans 2:28-29) God abandoned fleshly Israel when they murdered the last one sent to correct them, as Jesus said they had done too many times before.

    Yes, and a remnant responded to Jesus. The foundation members of Christianity were all Jews. They were given first opportunity to take up positions as rulers in God's Kingdom, but when the nation failed to produce the numbers, Gentiles were chosen to complete the arrangement.

    After God abandoned Judaism in the first century, (the reason why a third temple has never been built) despite being repatriated to their homeland in the middle of last century, they have never enjoyed a peaceful existence there. Jerusalem is a hotbed of religious disputes. They have not experienced God's blessing or his protection. They are spillers of blood just like all the rest. They have allied themselves with secular nations just as their forefathers did because they cannot count on their God to support them.

    Christianity is no longer about a geographical location...it is a global family united by their faith in the God of Jesus.

    The tribes of Israel spoken about in Revelation are 'spiritual' Israel...those who accepted Jesus as the Christ and abandoned that corrupt religious system to drown in their own prideful errors.

    Individuals of all nations can come to Christ, including Jews (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) ....but as a nation, the Jews lost their place because they could never remain faithful to their God.

    I believe that John the Baptist's words apply today as they did back in the first century....

    "Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

    They never produced the fruits....:( Many in Christendom don't either.
     
Loading...