'They 'are beginning to accuse President Trump over Iran

[oldbadger]

Sometimes it was the butler.

Particularly when he is carrying a smoking gun and is seen right in front of the dead body just after the shot was heard.

Ah...... like Cluedo?

Tomorrow the whole game may change.
The pointing fingers and mumbled complaints may end.

Boris needs to make friends. Lots of friends.

I haven't got a clue what's going to happen in the new game, though.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't want to speak for @oldbadger , so I'll ask a question.
Are you willing to put in the effort of speaking with Muslims in general, and Iranians in particular, to get a clear understanding of their views and perceptions of the history and current events?

I did, around 20 years ago, and it was rather mind blowing.
Tom

The history was grounded on so many British disgraces and manipulations. Our forefathers didn't give a damn for human rights or justice back-in-the-day.

I don't much like any Islamic extremism, but I don't like Western manipulation and human rights crimes either.

Tear away any propaganda and fake-news (from any sides) and we may see a completely different picture altogether.

Let's see how the new UK boss and the USA handle it from now. It could go any which way.

 

[columbus]

Let's see how the new UK boss and the USA handle it from now. It could go any which way.

I tend, for obvious reasons, to see this from a USA perspective.
The degree of misunderstanding and ignorance concerning how our issues with Iran came to be, around here, is appalling and very scary.
Tom

 

[Enoch07]

Uh... sources?

Pretty much every reputable source says that you are talking bull above.

Iran Breaches the Nuclear Deal and UN Resolutions for Third Time | HuffPost

It's because your "reputable" sources are lying to you. Make sure to take note of the date the article was written which is in 2016. The Iran Nuclear deal was signed in 2015.

 

[oldbadger]

I tend, for obvious reasons, to see this from a USA perspective.
The degree of misunderstanding and ignorance concerning how our issues with Iran came to be, around here, is appalling and very scary.
Tom

Yesterday it looked as if the UK could swap back oil tankers with Iran.
Today?
I couldn't guess which way that our new PM would move on this.

I'm looking at the UK position, and all I can see is an embarrassing mess, Scotland wanting to remain in the EU, Northern Ireland worried about it's borders with the Republic, a government with only a couple of seats majority and split up over Brexit. Total mess.

Europe cannot believe about how stupid we look.

So it's all looking positive here.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah...... like Cluedo?

Tomorrow the whole game may change.
The pointing fingers and mumbled complaints may end.

Boris needs to make friends. Lots of friends.

I haven't got a clue what's going to happen in the new game, though.

London is famous for its bets, isn't it?

If I had to bet, I would definitely bet that he will keep lying relentlessly and proudly up until he is kicked out some way or another. How long will he last is a matter of how deep the masochist strain runs in the House of Commons and, to a perhaps greater extent, how gullible the popular support for Conservatives remains.

Here is hoping for a week or so. But given the last few years' trends, he may last as long as a full year. He is nothing if not self-confident and reckless, and unfortunately that goes a much longer way in politics than it has any right to.

I would also bet that he will blame the EU and Labor for pretty much everything every that goes wrong (and it will be a very long list), but who would take such a bet?

 

[Notanumber]

I don't want to speak for @oldbadger , so I'll ask a question.
Are you willing to put in the effort of speaking with Muslims in general, and Iranians in particular, to get a clear understanding of their views and perceptions of the history and current events?

I did, around 20 years ago, and it was rather mind blowing.
Tom

In what way was it mind blowing?

 

[Notanumber]

I was impressed with Boris’s acceptance speech and the way that Jeremy Hunt immediately shook Boris’s hand when the result was announced.

The audience seemed to be very supportive of Boris and President Trump is impressed by Boris.

Things are finally looking up after 3 years of doom and gloom.

 

[oldbadger]

London is famous for its bets, isn't it?

If I had to bet, I would definitely bet that he will keep lying relentlessly and proudly up until he is kicked out some way or another. How long will he last is a matter of how deep the masochist strain runs in the House of Commons and, to a perhaps greater extent, how gullible the popular support for Conservatives remains.

Here is hoping for a week or so. But given the last few years' trends, he may last as long as a full year. He is nothing if not self-confident and reckless, and unfortunately that goes a much longer way in politics than it has any right to.

I would also bet that he will blame the EU and Labor for pretty much everything every that goes wrong (and it will be a very long list), but who would take such a bet?

A reasonable bet to place.
I do not think that Boris will get us out of the EU, and I'm not talking about Oct 31st, I'm talking about 'Ever'.

I do not think that Boris has enough support from Conservative MPs to remain in power, and guess that there will be a general election by Christmas.

But the next Election may well produce four or five parties, all with enough seats each for a difficult situation to exist..... no clear coalition or mandate for anything. The mess may well continue on......

 

[LuisDantas]

That is a fairly good bet. Too many people with an unicorn fetish.

 

[columbus]

In what way was it mind blowing?

That's a huge and complex question. Anything resembling a good answer would really need it's own thread. I was in many conversations, with a wide assortment of Middle Eastern people, from the very late 90's until around 2004. From the end of the Clinton administration, through 9/11, and well into the invasion of Iraq.

Mostly I listened, since I was there to learn. Once the Muslim folks came to realize that I wasn't a potential convert, but not an enemy either, they talked rather freely about events and history around me. They said things that I hadn't heard about from the media, and connected a bunch of dots for me.

Doing this subject justice would take a new thread and a lot of posting that's a bit arduous from my little phone. I've considered doing so, but I've just never felt that motivated to school American RF members, especially since I don't think many people would pay attention anyways. It would interfere with their pre-conceived ideas and warlike tendencies.

I'll just hit four highlights.
1) The embassy in Teheran wasn't really an embassy. It was CIA central for years propping up the hated US puppet Shah Pahlavi. As the Pahlavi regime started to collapse it became a center for violent, foreign, anti government forces. Namely the Great Satan, the USA.
2) Saddam Hussein couldn't have invaded Iran if the USA didn't instigate it and support it. We supplied financing, protection, materiel, intel, illegal weapons, etc., all in an attempt to crush the Iranian government.
3) When Hussein failed, the USA instigated him to invade Kuwait. This gave Bush the pretext needed to get rid of Saddam and replace him with someone more able.
4) When Bush's son assumed power one of the first things he did was declare war on Iran. In his first State of the Union address he named a hit list, called the Axis of Evil. It was composed of Iran, North Korea, and Iraq.
North Korea immediately produced a nuclear weapons program. Their regime is still in power today. Iraq had no such weapons, their leader was publicly executed by the USA along with his sons. Iran learned that lesson well. Get a nuclear deterrent or expect the USA to destroy you, as they have attempt to in the past.

And let me me make this point extremely clear! It doesn't matter whether or not you consider this an accurate account of events leading up to the current fiasco. The Iranians do. They plan to defend themselves by whatever means necessary. And nukes are their best bet.
Tom

 

[Curious George]

Of course it's a stretch. Trump has no beef with Obama. Trump is a businessman, who claims to be an expert at making deals. So more likely he saw the Iran deal as not a good one.

...But even I don't claim that likely scenario to be fact, even though it's at least 10 times more logical.

So what you are saying here is "thank you George: i cannot believe how mistaken i was in saying 'conspiratorial.'"

Yeah, no problem. That's why I am here.

 

[Cooky]

So what you are saying here is "thank you George: i cannot believe how mistaken i was in saying 'conspiratorial.'"

Yeah, no problem. That's why I am here.

It may have been the wrong word... But still.

 

[Shad]

Yes.
And Yes.

Now that Boris is going to be PM the criticisms of the USA/Trump could end ........... let's see.

So the chain of succession goes back to the majority party which selects someone? Nothing like POTUS to VP to Speaker of the House?

 

[oldbadger]

So the chain of succession goes back to the majority party which selects someone? Nothing like POTUS to VP to Speaker of the House?

This is a strange situation just now.
The Conservative party won the election about 4 years ago to hold office for five years. The PM, David Cameron, resigned and Theresa May took over as PM. Now she has resigned and Boris Johnson has taken over as PM, all during one government.
Most unusual.

 

[Shad]

This is a strange situation just now.
The Conservative party won the election about 4 years ago to hold office for five years. The PM, David Cameron, resigned and Theresa May took over as PM. Now she has resigned and Boris Johnson has taken over as PM, all during one government.
Most unusual.

Is a party nomination normally selected by party seats? Even for a general election?

 

[oldbadger]

Is a party nomination normally selected by party seats? Even for a general election?

Boris was elected as conservative leader by conservative party members. As conservative leader he took the PM's seat in the present government.

But in a General Election the British people each have a vote to elect a Member of Parliament for their local district.

This results in about 500 members of Parliament. These members can INDIVIDUALLY vote to enact or defeat any Bills that are proposed.

A majority of MPs with common political ideas can clump together and if they have a majority of seats then this is how a government is formed. Sometimes MPs with differing political ideals can clump together to make a coalition, which has happened at this time, the Democratic Unionist Party (about 10-11 seats) has combined with the Conservative party to gain a majority (of 1 or 2 seats) and govern.

This present government is the weakest that I have seen, I think.

@Terrywoodenpic was a Politician here and he can clarify my wobbly description details for sure.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Boris was elected as conservative leader by conservative party members. As conservative leader he took the PM's seat in the present government.

But in a General Election the British people each have a vote to elect a Member of Parliament for their local district.

This results in about 500 members of Parliament. These members can INDIVIDUALLY vote to enact or defeat any Bills that are proposed.

A majority of MPs with common political ideas can clump together and if they have a majority of seats then this is how a government is formed. Sometimes MPs with differing political ideals can clump together to make a coalition, which has happened at this time, the Democratic Unionist Party (about 10-11 seats) has combined with the Conservative party to gain a majority (of 1 or 2 seats) and govern.

This present government is the weakest that I have seen, I think.

@Terrywoodenpic was a Politician here and he can clarify my wobbly description details for sure.

Harold Wilson had minority government in1974 that lasted Seven months.
John Major became a minority government when he lost seats through defections and lost by-elections..

 

[Shad]

This present government is the weakest that I have seen, I think.

The system itself or just the current administration?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The system itself or just the current administration?

It is weak because it only has a majority of two and no consensus on brexit, non can it rely on the upper house to support anything.
It was surprising that May could keep the wagon on the road at all. Boris is faced with the same mathematics.
The Tories depend on the Northern Irish for support, but they only give it if they are given more concessions in return.