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These states cut unemployment aid early to supercharge hiring. It isn't working.

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Capitalism makes one more creative. One has an incentive to find a new niche or market with a new popular product or service..
People have been creative for so long that I doubt this claim. People look up to those like Edison, but he didn't actually invent that much (chances are, anything you can name he is credited with he didn't invent). Tesla illuminated the World Fair and kept inventing even though he was screwed by people like Edison. The "starving artist" trope does have some truth to it. And, as the saying goes necessity is the mother of all inventions. The explains the development of lunar calendars in many ancient cultures without capitalism and enterprise being a thought.
Capitalism makes one more efficient, since efficiency translates into increased profit.
But why is efficiency good? Is it good for its own sake? And at what cost?
Capitalism promotes being industrious. Working harder ought to improve revenue.
What's so good about working hard? And what "work?" Is this mindless cog work
Capitalism makes people willing to harm others and damage the environment for profit. Business needs to be regulated. Make these activities are too costly in terms of penalties and prison time.
I'd be willing to reevaluate this in light of considering what sort of people get ahead. Such as, what sort of people generally get ahead? From what I've read it's a lot of narcissists and others who are generally anti-social.
I doubt it makes. I suspect it may just draw out what's there.
Capitalism causes wealth to concentrate. The middle class needs protection to thrive, to have their labor valued fairly and share the profits of capitalism more equitably (unions, decent minimum wages, employer matching contributions).
This seems to be any system attempted by modern states.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think you missed my point, which I believe was also @Revoltingest 's point as well, and which was about how an employer chooses employees wages - not whether capitalism is good or bad.
But THAT he "chooses wages", with or without consideration for the employee's well-being, is the order of capitalism. I understand YOU weren't talking about capitalism. But I AM. Because what you were talking about can only exist within the confines of the capitalist directive: that the capital investor gets to make all the decisions, and everyone else can only then respond to them. It's a stupidly lopsided and deliberately selfish way to engage in commerce.
But since you've gone there, I've identified five things that capitalism promotes. Like most other people, I approve of the first three, but not the last two, which can be mitigated with government regulation and oversight of business, and with policies that support a middle class.
1. Capitalism makes one more creative.
No, it doesn't. The capital investor may be creative, or may not be creative. But everyone else only gets to respond to his dictates in defense of their own well-being. There is little creativity in that.
2. Capitalism makes one more efficient, since efficiency translates into increased profit.
"Efficiency" is a two-edged sword. As it very often comes at the cost of quality and longevity, which in the longer run is the more efficient. What capitalism does is drive business to be more and more short-term profit oriented. Not more "efficient". They like to call that short-term profiteering "efficiency", but in many instances, it's not efficiency at all. It's just greed.
One has an incentive to find a new niche or market with a new popular product or service.
Except that under capitalism, a system designed to reward money with more money, by giving all the control to the capital investor, the money piles up under the control of the capitalists, leaving little opportunity or control to anyone else. So really, it's only the capitalists that are able to explore those new economic possibilities. What do you think "Shark Tank" is all about? It's about the capitalist gauntlet. The huge, godlike, creative filter that is the capital investor. And their priority is making as much money from their investment as possible. Generating useful new products for humanity is not their primary consideration. In fact, they will happily introduce useless, foolish, and even destructive products to the world if they think they can gain a profit from it.
Capitalism promotes being industrious. Working harder ought to improve revenue.
Being "industrious" is not a value in itself. It only becomes a value or a liability in relation to the results of that industriousness. And the fact that you did not recognize this is one of the poisonous effects of a system based on rewarding individual greed, rather then on rewarding collective responsibility and well-being. We have been trained that our value depends on our ability to increase the profits to the capital investors. We confuse our "industriousness" with our exploitation.
Capitalism makes people willing to harm others and damage the environment for profit. Business needs to be regulated. Make these activities are too costly in terms of penalties and prison time.
But so long as we keep rewarding greed with greater profits, that ever-increasing pile of capital will be used to serve the greed that generated it, by corrupting the government and it's attempts at reigning that greed in. Capitalism is a fundamentally adversarial system that pits everyone against everyone else, for any and all the marbles. So to any degree that those marbles pile up in the hands of any one individual or commercial entity, they will be used against everyone else, to try and gain an even greater share of the marbles. And that greed is insatiable. It does not stop until the system destroys itself by allowing one entity to gain all the marbles. We've made many laws in the past, after suffering the disastrous effects of a greed-based economic system, but most of those laws have now been rescinded by the capitalists corrupting the lawmakers with the very profits that were meant to be reigned in. There is no stopping this corruption so long as we continue to systematically reward greed, with more wealth. The only solution is to take some or all control away from the capital investor (including some of the profits being gained from it), and give it to the people being effected by those control decisions.
Capitalism causes wealth to concentrate. The middle class needs protection to thrive, to have their labor valued fairly and share the profits of capitalism more equitably (unions, decent minimum wages, employer matching contributions).
The middle class does not need government protection. What it needs is a seat at the commercial decision-making table, so it can protect itself.What we need government for is to protect us from ourselves, and from each other. Because without government, all our decisions will be based on self-interest, and not of our collective interests.
Capitalism worked well for me. It worked very well for America, too, until the successful effort to deregulate business and undermine the labor force in management's favor beginning about 1980 promoted the two bad guys listed above damaging the work force and the environment. This is probably what you object to, and so do I.
You talk as if only the capitalists and the middle class existed before 1980. But even then, huge segments of the population were being exploited, abused, and neglected. Not to mention the atrocious treatment of the environment (in spite of our struggles to reign it in). How good capitalism was for you does not equate to capitalism being good for all of us. In any time period.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Let's preserve and even facilitate that engine of innovation, efficiency, and industry.
Except that capitalism is not the "engine of innovation". Capitalism is systematized GREED, not systematized AMBITION (as the propagandists have lied and claimed, endlessly). And unless we are willing to learn and accept the difference between these two motives, no realistic or reasonable discussion of capitalism, or of a better alternative, can be possible.

Unregulated capitalism is bad. It's Dickensian capitalism and Robber Baron capitalism - dismal. But done properly, it's a huge win for the people, who could once support a family, a mortgage, a car payment and an annual vacation with a single income, possibly unskilled like mailman. That was capitalism, too.
"Done properly", it's no longer capitalism. It's capital investment within a socialist economic system. But we can't have that discussion, either, until the term socialism is properly understood and accepted. Something that is very difficult to achieve here in the U.S., and often elsewhere.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
THAT he "chooses wages", with or without consideration for the employee's well-being, is the order of capitalism.

Capitalism depends on all of the players making decisions to optimize their own outcome. The manufacturer is trying to optimize profit from sales. Customers are looking for the best deal at the best price. And labor is looking for the most attractive job according to pay, benefits, hours, and work environment.

But to optimize profit, the manufacturer must must draw the best employees and offer the best product or service relative to the competition, so he must consider what both the employee and customer require to continue either working for or buying from him.

No, it doesn't. The capital investor may be creative, or may not be creative.

I chose my words poorly. Capitalism doesn't make people more creative as I wrote. It rewards innovation. It incentivizes coming up with new ideas that are popular and therefore profitable.

"Efficiency" is a two-edged sword. As it very often comes at the cost of quality and longevity, which in the longer run is the more efficient.

In the context of discussing the benefits of capitalism, efficiency refers changes that increase profitability such as Ford's assembly line. If a manufacturer decides to cut quality in a way that is noticeable to its potential customers, they won't be repeat customers. I am not calling changes that increase short-term profit at the expense of long term viability and profitability, such as the cannibalistic practices of the eighties associated with Milken and Boesky, which destroyed businesses. I recall Nestle trying to cut corners in its baby food and suffering a global scandal. Also, Sears automotive short-changing its customers to increase short-term profits. That is not what I mean by efficiency, either. And since such practices are harmful to people, these are areas where government regulation is required.

Being "industrious" is not a value in itself. It only becomes a value or a liability in relation to the results of that industriousness.

The principle is the same. Capitalism rewards industry, but only if one is working toward providing a product or service that people want and will pay for.

In each case, what I mean by innovation, efficiency, and industry is those choices that result in increased profitability under the rules of the game as established by government, not people spinning wheels unprofitably or cutting corners and producing an inferior product. Businesses run with a long-term vision will survive when others looking for a quick kill or failing to remain modern and competitive will fall aside quickly. Enron is gone for that kind of management. Nice to be able to put 'Established in 1924' on your product or place of business. Nice to see when considering spending money there.

Getting back to capitalism promoting industry, I had a career in medicine. Competition for medical school seats was significant. You weren't getting in if you didn't apply yourself in university. You weren't graduating if you didn't apply yourself there as well. You weren't going into practice if you weren't willing to work 80-100 hours a week on call during one's internship and residency. And you weren't going to have a successful practice (in internal medicine) unless you were available for calls all night and a trip to the ER at any hour if one was on ER call or one's patient presented in the ER needing admission. I wasn't going to do all of that unless the reward was equal, and I'm not just talking about income. There's also the pride of doing something that makes a difference, the appreciation of one's patients, the way American society esteemed its doctors, and the chance to be self-employed in private practice. That was the deal when I opted in.

But as you may know, the practice of medicine was degraded in multiple ways in my time there. Physician payment was reduced. Physician autonomy was restricted by HMOs. HMO's pressured physicians to become advocates for the HMO's decisions rather than advocates of patients. Physician liability increased as one lost control of case management but not responsibility for its outcome in the eyes of the courts. Physicians' prestige plummeted as they became providers along with the physician's assistants and nurse practitioners.

Of course, much of this was due to government intervention, but in the eighties and beyond, it wasn't done to protect patients, but rather, insurers at the expense of patients and physicians. When I'm talking about capitalism needing regulation, it's regulation that improves the availability, safety, and delivery of health care, not what the American right envisioned and executed.

Bottom line - it just wasn't worth it to me any longer, and my plans changed from intending to work 50 years to age 80 if health permitted, to getting out as quickly as possible, which turned out to be after 25 years. I closed the office and moved to Mexico, where I've relaxed in tropical shirts over tacos and margueritas since. Now, in retirement, I generate nothing of value other than some charity and volunteerism. That's a difference between a people-centered approach to capitalism, and what it became. If I were a young man making career decisions, I wouldn't even consider medicine now. Let people willing to work in that environment take the medical school seats. That's the difference between the liberal vision of capitalism and that of the Republicans.

The principle is evident. A well run environment for medicine would continue to draw the most qualified applicants into the field, incentivize them to be industrious and efficient, and give them reason to provide medical care to the community for many decades. That serves society.

But the kind of capitalism that the Republicans envisioned and implemented to a large degree is the kind that is largely unregulated and with eroded worker support. I think you're defining that as capitalism, but it's what I call robber baron capitalism. That's what people born in the mid-20th century have seen America approach, as national forests get mined, unions are disempowered, minimum wage fails to keep up, worker benefits are reduced, bankruptcy laws stiffened, deregulated banks engaging in risky but highly profitable practices and bailed out by tax payers, regressive taxation schedules, and just about every other change we've seen in our lifetimes including the advent of HMOs and the insurance industry's capture of the medicine with government's assistance and blessings.

If this is what one means by capitalism, then of course it is objectionable. I quit it.

One more point - I'm actually grateful to the Republicans for giving me cause to retire early, which was really better for my wife and me, but which I never would have done had the deal been kept - what I gave for what I expected in return. I just never would have made that decision. I couldn't justify it. I felt like I owed a full career in exchange for my education and the privilege to be included in the medical profession, but not once they welched on the deal.

The middle class does not need government protection. What it needs is a seat at the commercial decision-making table, so it can protect itself.

Disagree. Capitalism doesn't work for the majority without government support, without which, there is little or no middle class. Think Oliver Twist.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Capitalism depends on all of the players making decisions to optimize their own outcome. The manufacturer is trying to optimize profit from sales. Customers are looking for the best deal at the best price. And labor is looking for the most attractive job according to pay, benefits, hours, and work environment.

But to optimize profit, the manufacturer must must draw the best employees and offer the best product or service relative to the competition, so he must consider what both the employee and customer require to continue either working for or buying from him.
If you consider that fair then isn't it also considered fair for workers to unionize to maximize their profit? After all labor is simply selling your labor as a commodity. It only makes sense to maximize your profit for that product.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you consider that fair then isn't it also considered fair for workers to unionize to maximize their profit? After all labor is simply selling your labor as a commodity. It only makes sense to maximize your profit for that product.

Yes, I agree. The worker should also try to optimize his situation without regard for the boss or the customer, meaning to take the best job available at the highest compensation one can get. Compensation here means more than salary - someone might feel better paid making $5000 less per year doing something that he preferred, or with a better 401k.

I support the idea of propping up the laboring class so that they share in the bounty of capitalism. This is what I meant by government supporting a healthy middle class, which doesn't exist in an unregulated capitalist environment however much it generates if worker protections are not instituted and enforced. This is what good government does.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
But to optimize profit, the manufacturer must must draw the best employees and offer the best product or service relative to the competition, so he must consider what both the employee and customer require to continue either working for or buying from him.
Not necessarily. I've worked a bunch of jobs where they just need a living body with pulse, and that is about the extent of what they require and check for to work for them. These places are not drawing from the best, but rather mostly scrapping from the bottom of the barrel. And this includes large, national companies.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not necessarily. I've worked a bunch of jobs where they just need a living body with pulse, and that is about the extent of what they require and check for to work for them. These places are not drawing from the best, but rather mostly scrapping from the bottom of the barrel. And this includes large, national companies.

Perhaps instead of best employees, I should have said optimal employees, those being any employee that can do the job well for the lowest pay that they will work for. If the job requires little skill, then almost anybody willing to take the job is the best employee if it isn't possible to be a better one.

From the employers perspective, a guy with no high school diploma may be the best employee if he's up to the job and would be satisfied with it. The applicant with the college degree might not be able to more if the job is menial, would probably cost more, and is more likely to be looking to greener pastures.

Whatever the employer requires, he must pay enough to attract and retain such people, which was my point. Even a selfish employer with no concern for the well-being of his employees must give them what they require if he wants them to work for him, so he must consider their interests to promote his own. Employers don't have to be altruistic to be good to their employees: "Enlightened self-interest is a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest."

We've read examples of enlightened employers being better to their employees than was necessary and it resulting in increased profitability for the business, the larger point being that entrepreneurs can benefit from considering employee (and customer) needs and preferences. Pay employees well and give them a good work environment, and you benefit though lower absenteeism, better attitudes on the job, and less theft and employee vandalism.

But because not all employers are enlightened, we also need the government to protect the employee from exploitation and dangerous or toxic work environment, and the customer from such things as electrocution and poisoning.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Perhaps instead of best employees, I should have said optimal employees, those being any employee that can do the job well for the lowest pay that they will work for. If the job requires little skill, then almost anybody willing to take the job is the best employee if it isn't possible to be a better one.
They could get better. They could get people better suited for the work. But they can't. These places are usually crappy hours, crappy work environments, crappy pay, and are negligent of employees. Basically places taking advantage hiring anyone, because many of those they hire aren't getting hired elsewhere (criminal records, lacking skills, or in my case lacking sufficient interview skills to get something better) so they take full advantage and just let the high turnover rate be because there's always an endless supply of fresh bodies needing a job.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Capitalism depends on all of the players making decisions to optimize their own outcome. The manufacturer is trying to optimize profit from sales. Customers are looking for the best deal at the best price. And labor is looking for the most attractive job according to pay, benefits, hours, and work environment.

But to optimize profit, the manufacturer must must draw the best employees and offer the best product or service relative to the competition, so he must consider what both the employee and customer require to continue either working for or buying from him.
Wow! You really swallowed that capitalist BS, didn't you!

First, capitalism does not depend on anyone doing anything but investing their excess capital in a business enterprise. And in doing so it gives the capital investor total control over whatever business enterprise he invests his capital in. The buyer does not have a say in what businesses are set up for him to buy from, nor how the businesses that are set up will be conducted. Neither do the employees conducting the business. All they can do is respond/react to whatever the capitalists decide to invest their capital in, and however they decide to conduct that business. And because giving them so much control invites and enables all manner of abuse, the government then has to be called upon to try and mitigate, ban, and adjudicate the abuse.

The vast majority of capital investors invest their excess capital for one reason, and with one purpose: to gain a maximum monetary return on the capital they've invested. And that very often does not require them to "offer the best product or service relative to the competition". Nor does it require them to "hire the best employees". And the reason is that providing quality and/or value are not why they're in business. They will only do that if they have to, to maximize the monetary return on the capital they've invested. And in many instances, and for many reason, they very often do not need to do so to achieve that end. They can very easily force us to put up with inferior quality, value, and service while making us pay the maximum price. In fact, that's pretty much the name of the game in business, these days. And has been for many decades.
I chose my words poorly. Capitalism doesn't make people more creative as I wrote. It rewards innovation. It incentivizes coming up with new ideas that are popular and therefore profitable.
No, not really. What it does is drive out the competition, by any legal means and regardless of anyone's innovation, to create a monopoly. The singular goal of any business enterprise in a capitalist system is to gain a monopoly, if possible, and to exploit that monopoly to it's fullest extent, financially.
In the context of discussing the benefits of capitalism, efficiency refers changes that increase profitability such as Ford's assembly line. If a manufacturer decides to cut quality in a way that is noticeable to its potential customers, they won't be repeat customers. I am not calling changes that increase short-term profit at the expense of long term viability and profitability, such as the cannibalistic practices of the eighties associated with Milken and Boesky, which destroyed businesses. I recall Nestle trying to cut corners in its baby food and suffering a global scandal. Also, Sears automotive short-changing its customers to increase short-term profits. That is not what I mean by efficiency, either. And since such practices are harmful to people, these are areas where government regulation is required.
Any auto manufacturer could produce a car that lasts 50 - 75 years, for about the same price as what they produce now, that only lasts 20 years. NONE of them are doing so, and none of them will. Because making better cars is NOT THEIR GOAL. Providing better value for the money is not their goal, either. Neither is selling more cars. Their goal is generating the maximum profit on the capital they've invested in car-building. NONE of them are going to deviate from that goal. NONE of them are going to start building better cars, or even good cheap cars.
The principle is the same. Capitalism rewards industry, but only if one is working toward providing a product or service that people want and will pay for.
Capitalism rewards the capital investor. As a system, capitalism does not care how hard or efficiently anyone works, and it's far less interested in what we need, or think we need , than what we want. We can always refuse to indulge what we want. But with what we need, or think we need, they've got us on the hook. We'll have to buy from someone, and all the sellers know it. So no one is going to break ranks. No one wants to sell more product. What they want is to sell less product for a lot more money. And that's the goal they will be competing for.

In each case, what I mean by innovation, efficiency, and industry is those choices that result in increased profitability under the rules of the game as established by government, not people spinning wheels unprofitably or cutting corners and producing an inferior product.
But if spinning wheels and cutting costs gain higher profits ... because they have a monopoly, well, then!
Businesses run with a long-term vision will survive when others looking for a quick kill or failing to remain modern and competitive will fall aside quickly.
Doesn't matter. All that matters is how profitable they are while they last. Once they're gone, there's always another one to invest in.
Getting back to capitalism promoting industry, I had a career in medicine. Competition for medical school seats was significant. You weren't getting in if you didn't apply yourself in university. You weren't graduating if you didn't apply yourself there as well. You weren't going into practice if you weren't willing to work 80-100 hours a week on call during one's internship and residency. And you weren't going to have a successful practice (in internal medicine) unless you were available for calls all night and a trip to the ER at any hour if one was on ER call or one's patient presented in the ER needing admission.
None of which was doing the patients any good. Or you, either. So why exactly were things being done that way? Hazing to get into the biggest business monopoly there is? "Pay what we say, or die", now THAT'S a monopoly! :)
But as you may know, the practice of medicine was degraded in multiple ways in my time there. Physician payment was reduced. Physician autonomy was restricted by HMOs. HMO's pressured physicians to become advocates for the HMO's decisions rather than advocates of patients. Physician liability increased as one lost control of case management but not responsibility for its outcome in the eyes of the courts. Physicians' prestige plummeted as they became providers along with the physician's assistants and nurse practitioners.
Sure, the monopolies just got bigger and bigger, and even you ended up being just another cog in their exploitation for profit machine.
Of course, much of this was due to government intervention, but in the eighties and beyond, it wasn't done to protect patients, but rather, insurers at the expense of patients and physicians. When I'm talking about capitalism needing regulation, it's regulation that improves the availability, safety, and delivery of health care, not what the American right envisioned and executed.
Bribing the government not only not to protect labor or the consumer, but to create and enforce their market monopolies has been the go-to big business strategy for many decades, now. We see all the different company logos in the stores and think they're all competing with each other for our business, when in fact the majority of those companies are all owned by the same giant business conglomerate, and they aren't competing at all.
Bottom line - it just wasn't worth it to me any longer, and my plans changed from intending to work 50 years to age 80 if health permitted, to getting out as quickly as possible, which turned out to be after 25 years. I closed the office and moved to Mexico, where I've relaxed in tropical shirts over tacos and margueritas since. Now, in retirement, I generate nothing of value other than some charity and volunteerism. That's a difference between a people-centered approach to capitalism, and what it became. If I were a young man making career decisions, I wouldn't even consider medicine now. Let people willing to work in that environment take the medical school seats. That's the difference between the liberal vision of capitalism and that of the Republicans.
There never really was a "people-catering" approach in capitalism. It was always about the greed, and about exploiting everyone else for as much as you could take from them, before they did it to you. The difference is that the monopolies are much smarter, and bigger, and have the wealth and power of small countries, now. And can own and control our politicians, and our media outlets, and our minds. And so they just keep on exploiting and bilking us for everything they can get. Sure, the quality of everything in life goes down the tubes while we all drown in a sea of useless junk. But hey, that's the "miracle of capitalism"!
The principle is evident. A well run environment for medicine would continue to draw the most qualified applicants into the field, incentivize them to be industrious and efficient, and give them reason to provide medical care to the community for many decades. That serves society.
Capitalism is not the least bit interested in "serving society". And practicing medicine for profit is the equivalent of extortion.
But the kind of capitalism that the Republicans envisioned and implemented to a large degree is the kind that is largely unregulated and with eroded worker support. I think you're defining that as capitalism, but it's what I call robber baron capitalism.
That IS capitalism. And it always has been. This fantasy that once upon a time capitalists were benevolent and capitalism was serving mankind is nothing but capitalist propaganda. It's BS. Capitalism has always been toxic to any society stupid enough to engage in it, which is why it's always needed a powerful government to restrain it before it destroys everyone. But that just makes capitalism toxic to government, too. And in the end it'll also destroy that, too. As it has pretty well destroyed ours. (Why you no longer live here.) There never was any "gentle" capitalism that you thought you were living in years ago. It doesn't exist. At best, there was only a momentarily subjugated capitalism, regrouping for another all-out assault on humanity in the cause of bottomless individual greed.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Any auto manufacturer could produce a car that lasts 50 - 75 years, for about the same price as what they produce now, that only lasts 20 years. NONE of them are doing so, and none of them will. Because making better cars is NOT THEIR GOAL. Providing better value for the money is not their goal, either. Neither is selling more cars. Their goal is generating the maximum profit on the capital they've invested in car-building. NONE of them are going to deviate from that goal. NONE of them are going to start building better cars, or even good cheap cars.
Is this based upon your vast experience in the auto industry?
What specific design changes in cars would you make?
<snicker>
The greatest certainty & demonization most foul is always
from those with the least knowledge of the subject, eh.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Capitalism depends on all of the players making decisions to optimize their own outcome. The manufacturer is trying to optimize profit from sales. Customers are looking for the best deal at the best price. And labor is looking for the most attractive job according to pay, benefits, hours, and work environment.

But to optimize profit, the manufacturer must must draw the best employees and offer the best product or service relative to the competition, so he must consider what both the employee and customer require to continue either working for or buying from him.

I sometimes go on anti-capitalist tirades myself, although I tend to look at it more from a historical viewpoint of where it came from and what it grew out of.

I think what we see today, at least in regards to the positives of capitalism that many people talk about, was the result of restrained and regulated capitalism, with a strong, government-supported social service system to ensure that the poor, disabled, and disadvantaged are taken care of.

When looking over the grand scale of history, one can cite countless examples of man's inhumanity to man. The Romans are a common example, an aggressive, warlike empire built on conquest and slavery, and which found entertainment in gladiatorial games. But they also became quite wealthy and powerful, which seems to be a common goal for a lot of people who have walked this earth. Some people are satisfied with less, but there have always been those who want it all.

Such seems to be a constant throughout history. But there have also been political changes which occurred, as well technological advancements which led to industrialism. Peasants went from working in the fields to working in the factories, where the capitalist factory owner was the replacement for the feudal lord they used to work for. Toiling at 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week - for about 50¢. Even small children worked in factories back in those early days. Beatings were commonplace, and it could be said that screaming and crying could be heard from the factories to the late hours of the night.

There was strong resistance at first, not just due to the maltreatment, but they also felt that machines were a threat. People who did things by hand or worked primarily with their muscles saw machines as threatening their livelihood. There were others who immediately noticed the by-products of industry and the effects of pollution and waste. But the capitalists were growing wealthy and powerful, and they were able to use that to influence politicians and government.

One thing that should be noted is that, capitalists rarely agreed to reforms easily or voluntarily, especially when it came to things like ending sweatshops, child labor, slavery. They fought violently and aggressively against the labor movement, using strikebreakers and murder to get the strikers back to work so they can gain more profit. Most of our nation's sins are rooted in the incessant drive for profit, which dominated our politics for a long time - even while hiding behind slogans such as "freedom" and "liberty."

The core element in all of this is that, there is a certain class of people who seem to think that they're above others, and that the common worker or peasant is just some "thing" that they feel entitled to abuse, exploit, mistreat, or pay as little or much as they decide. If the feudal lord or plantation owner or factory owner wants to get something done and needs workers, they'll do whatever it takes. They'll send out thugs to capture people in other lands and make them slaves, they'll trick people, entice them with false promises, manipulate them, gaslight them - as well as bribe politicians to ensure the government is always on their side, leaving the common people even more powerless.

But the rise of various reform movements could not be stopped or ignored, so politically, it became necessary for capitalists to change their ways of thinking. The various revolutions in Europe (such as in 1848) were wake-up calls for a lot of people that their world was rapidly changing and they'd better adapt quickly. Plus, the advent of industrialism was leading to better weapons and bigger armies, so that was also a growing concern. Technology was changing things to the point where politics and society took time to adjust.

I think World War I marked a major turning point, mainly because it demonstrated what a dead end capitalism, industrialism, and nationalism can lead to when they're combined together to make a war. All of the nations which participated in that conflict had capitalist or quasi-capitalist systems - not a socialist in the bunch.

All had imperialist ambitions, especially the Germans, who wanted a bigger piece of the colonial action being monopolized by Britain and France. They wanted their share. Austria also wanted to grab what they could of the Balkans, as they were left in disarray due to the slow crumbling of the Ottoman Empire.

All were motivated by self-interest, both economic and strategic interests. The capitalists have a vested interest, since if their side wins, they stand to benefit, whereas if they lose, then they also lose. Each country's government's actions and positions taken in the war is explainable when viewed from that standpoint.

Capitalism and nationalism are philosophically related in the sense that both emphasize self-interest and competition, although not all competition has always been "friendly," to say the least. WW1 was a most unfriendly competition, to say the least. But to many people at the time, they saw it as the result of a capitalist/imperialist philosophy which believes that only the strong shall survive.

That's how socialism grew to be more attractive in places such as Imperial Russia, which suffered immensely as a result of WW1. Germans also rose up against the Kaiser, forcing him to abdicate. It was clear that much of the world was becoming quite fed up with the ways and means of how the world was being run. I think capitalists in America, Britain, and France saw what was happening in Germany and Russia and figured they'd be better off giving more to the workers and common people, lest they also be tempted by revolutionary ideals. That's when unions became more of a force and governments were more inclined towards reform, which capitalists bristled against all throughout.

For America, the policies of FDR actually paid off in the long run, as he advocated liberal social programs and reforms in many areas. Plus he marshaled the country's resources and manpower which was a tremendous boost to the Allied powers in WW2. Afterwards, America was in a fortunate position to be among the few countries left with fully functioning industries. That also benefited capitalists and the working classes. Unions were stronger, but it seemed the capitalists could still make a decent profit while compromising with the unions. And, as long as there was the support of a strong, stable government dedicated to the rule of law, people would be assured that they would be protected by the law.

That may reflect what many people might view capitalism as, since it's viewed as the "after" picture. We don't really want to look at the "before" picture. For many Americans who enjoy a relatively decent standard of living, capitalism has been good to them, and that's all they really want or need to know.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They could get better. They could get people better suited for the work. But they can't. These places are usually crappy hours, crappy work environments, crappy pay, and are negligent of employees. Basically places taking advantage hiring anyone, because many of those they hire aren't getting hired elsewhere (criminal records, lacking skills, or in my case lacking sufficient interview skills to get something better) so they take full advantage and just let the high turnover rate be because there's always an endless supply of fresh bodies needing a job.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing. Optimal employee is from the entrepreneur's perspective, and that is defined as the employee who who can give the company the most for the least in compensation. Optimal employer is from the perspective of the employee, and is the employer who will compensate the employee best and provide the best work environment. Both of these people can operate in their own self-interest and come to a mutually beneficial and acceptable employee-employer relationship.

Of course, the more valuable the employee's contribution in generating profit, the more a prospective employer will offer to land that applicant. For the applicant that can only offer commonly available skills, he will likely have to depend on government protection to earn a living wage, which will be whatever the minimum wage is or what a union can get the employee above minimum wage. It's yet another wrinkle of capitalism - laborers are also competing for the best jobs. If you're uncompetitive in the workforce, you can expect the same results as he who is uncompetitive in the marketplace - lower revenue for what you're selling, in this case, labor.

Wow! You really swallowed that capitalist BS, didn't you!

Have you and I ever had a discussion that you didn't eventually make personal? Shall I comment on how bad I consider your thinking?

capitalism does not depend on anyone doing anything but investing their excess capital in a business enterprise.

You and I are also not talking about the same thing, so I see no point in proceeding. You seem to be considering only venture capitalists, which is largely people who don't work for what they receive from their investment (capital gains).

I'm talking about an economic system promoting free enterprise. Somebody opening their home to children for day care is also competing for dollars, even if their is no capital investment. That, too, is capitalism. Free enterprise. Self-employment. Offering a service at a price in a milieu of competing day care centers according to the relative value of that service to its intended market, the parents of young kids. If the day care provider is innovative, efficient, and/or industrious, he or she will generate more profit than if not. If an employee is needed, that person is also participating in the market vending labor and skills. The employee that can offer the most for the least will be the one thriving best.

But that aspect of capitalism is of no interest to you, probably because it doesn't support you bad capitalism narrative (I hope you don't mind me now taking the liberty of discussing you instead of economics).

Since you really just want to bemoan the predatory and destructive aspects of underregulated capitalism without offering any solutions or better alternatives, nor do you have any interest in discussing the constructive aspects of this economic system that I keep bringing, yet feel comfortable making unflattering personal comments, we've reached an impasse, and should end this.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Is this based upon your vast experience in the auto industry?
What specific design changes in cars would you make?
<snicker>
The greatest certainty & demonization most foul is always
from those with the least knowledge of the subject, eh.
I think the gist is the scummy practice of planned obsolescence of products.

Intentionally designing things to break forcing the consumer to buy more and more replacements at more and more profit for the company at the expense of the 'dumb' consumer.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think the gist is the scummy practice of planned obsolescence of products.

Intentionally designing things to break forcing the consumer to buy more and more replacements at more and more profit for the company at the expense of the 'dumb' consumer.
People say this is done. But do they really know it,
or is it just a cynical thing that's fun to believe?
I've known many who work in the auto industry,
& none have ever designed for obsolescence.
But there is tremendous effort to cut costs because
price is so important to consumers. Despite this, cars
are lasting longer than they used to, even as minor
service issues have become tougher & spendier.

(I worked in the industry too, but only in heavy
trucks, which are designed to put on more miles
in heavier service than cars.)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
People say this is done. But do they really know it,
or is it just a cynical thing that's fun to believe?
I've known many who work in the auto industry,
& none have ever designed for obsolescence.
But there is tremendous effort to cut costs because
price is so important to consumers. Despite this, cars
are lasting longer than they used to, even as minor
service issues have become tougher & spendier.

(I worked in the industry too, but only in heavy
trucks, which are designed to put on more miles
in heavier service than cars.)
Well sealing in batteries in phones is a great example. You end up throwing out a perfectly good phone and buying a new one.

In the past it was great. I could change out and keep the phone for years and years. Only pay for new batteries. Now people are lucky to have it last 2 years before the sealed batteries are no good.

Kachina!
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well sealing in batteries in phones is a great example. You end up throwing out a perfectly good phone and buying a new one.

In the past it was great. I could change out and keep the phone for years and years. Only pay for new batteries. Now people are lucky to have it last 2 years before the sealed batteries are no good.

Kachina!




I'd like to add light bulbs and what planned obsolescence is.




As a result of greed, we now have crappy cheap worthless goods by the bucket load.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well sealing in batteries in phones is a great example. You end up throwing out a perfectly good phone and buying a new one.

In the past it was great. I could change out and keep the phone for years and years. Only pay for new batteries. Now people are lucky to have it last 2 years before the sealed batteries are no good.

Kachina!
I don't know the phone industry intimately. But I do
know that I can get my iphone battery changed,
even though I've never needed to have that done.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I don't know the phone industry intimately. But I do
know that I can get my iphone battery changed,
even though I've never needed to have that done.

They need to do it for you at cost?

Just send me a new battery. I'm a big boy. Just unseal the damm phone.

Sorry Charlie. Battery is permanently sealed inside. Gotta get a new phone or servicing. ...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member


I'd like to add light bulbs and what planned obsolescence is.




As a result of greed, we now have crappy cheap worthless goods by the bucket load.
LIght bulbs have gained tremendously in life over the last
couple decades. But even in the old days of incandescents,
long life bulbs were available...heavier filaments, brass base.
It was a trade-off though...they cost more, & they were less
efficient (less light for a given wattage).
Landlord here...I've bought thousands of bulbs....low pressure
sodium, high pressure sodium, mercury, fluorescent, T12, T8,
T5, PL13, PL9, PLC13, LED, incandescent, medium base, mogul
base, candelabra base, etc. I've seen nothing but improvement
in price, efficiency, & life.
If there's a conspiracy, it's to save me money
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They need to do it for you at cost?

Just send me a new battery. I'm a big boy. Just unseal the damm phone.

Sorry Charlie. Battery is permanently sealed inside. Gotta get a new phone or servicing. ...
And yet, the service is offered.
iPhone Battery Replacement - Official Apple Support

Again, if it's a conspiracy, it's to provide me with a better
product than in years past, even compared to those
cel phones with quick-detach batteries...which didn't
last as long. Now I don't need extra batteries.
 
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