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Featured There's Not An Iota Of Evidence The Apostles Existed

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Jun 5, 2021.

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  1. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    This verse didn’t apply to me and I don’t have preconceived ideas about you. You’re talking like Satan talks, you’re using his language.
     
  2. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    What truth is that?
     
  3. actsfourthirty

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    you’re personal scripture

    2 Peter 3:3
    Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
     
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  4. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Oh no?

    Who's talking like satan? Lying is a sin. ;)
     
    #244 night912, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  5. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    No and you are talking like Satan when you use scripture to try to cause doubt in a believer. That’s what Satan does. How does Matthew 7 apply to me? It doesn’t.
    So who is lying? Not me, so what are you wanting to accomplish? Are you wanting to make a list of sins?
     
    #245 ElishaElijah, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  6. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Cool, I just wanted to confirm that there is no evidence to support that.
     
  7. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    @night912

    ““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    You share this verse, why?
    First of all, I am doing my Father’s will, do you know what God’s will is? Are you doing God’s will?
    Second, I’m not going to go to Jesus declaring anything except thanksgiving for what He has done for me.
    Third, I’m not practicing lawlessness.

    We are living like this over here:
    ““Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-25‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
     
    #247 ElishaElijah, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  8. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    I just showed that you lied.
     
  9. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Nope you didn’t and your false accusations don’t amount to anything.
     
  10. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't expecting a liar to admit it, just showing the facts. And facts don't lie, they show the truth. So no need to continue with this conversation.
     
  11. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Lol, no facts as usual, just false accusations, then quit.
     
  12. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    It show's his bounty and mercifulness.
     
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  13. LegionOnomaMoi

    LegionOnomaMoi Veteran Member
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    I don't who "these people" are. In my experience, people who believe that there is little or no evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus or his disciples have are almost always ignorant of ancient history, classical studies, classical languages, archaeology, and just about the sum total of all relevant fields here. Basically, they don't care much about ancient history and can't read the sources in their original languages and are generally unaware of the nature of our evidence for those figures from antiquity we take for granted.
    Interestingly, the popular sensationalist and former-Christian-turned-non-believer Bart Ehrman made comparisons similar to those you dismiss above. Namely, he states (truthfully) that we have an abundance of evidence and explictly compares the evidence for Jesus to that of Julius Caesar. The interviewer, as is typical of those whose interest in ancient history extends only so far as would-be arguments against the historicity of Jesus and similar topics, rejoins that these "tactics" are used by apologists. Of course, Ehrman is not an apologist and most of his popular works are used by those who seek to undermine the validity of Christian claims. You can watch the video here (or skip to about 1:55~ into it)


    There is. You simply dismiss the historical evidence that we have as being Christian or otherwise unreliable while failing to understand the nature of ancient historiography and our evidence for ancient individuals and history more generally. The letters of Paul alone are more evidence for Jesus' followers than we have for Pythagoras, the bulk of whose biographical details date from about half a millennia after Pythagoras is supposed to have lived.

    1) The gospels fit into a kind of historical genre. Most historians of and around that time included myth, legend, and fantasy within their histories.
    2) We usually don't have historians mentioning the names of historical individuals we know of. We usually don't even know whether or not those names that are mentioned in various works are the same persons or not. Most individuals come down to us in the form of medieval manuscript copies of texts containing supposed quotations of authors whose works are lost to us completely and survive only as fragments. Often we don't have that much.
    But of course as those interested in the arguments that are somehow supposed to undermine Christianity by attacking it from a historical perspective are generally ignorant of historical methods and the nature of historical evidence in and around this period, such individuals generally blindly accept that somehow Livy or Tacitus or Herodotus or even Diogenes Laertius somehow provide us with actual "history" of a type that the gospels are supposed clearly not to have done.
    One wonders what tales mythicists would spin if, instead of this weird obsession with the would-be lack of historical evidence for Jesus (and/or his followers), they were concerned with establishing that Socrates couldn't have existed because of the fictional genre of the Sokratikoi logoi, the clearly fictional depiction of this character in Aristophanes, the complete absence of manuscript evidence save a handful of medieval copies of copies of copies of questionable veracity, and the obviously conflicting accounts given even by his supposed contemporaries.
     
    #253 LegionOnomaMoi, Jun 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  14. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.”
    ‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:22‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    Where do you stand with Jesus Christ? Do you say that Jesus is the Christ ?
     
  15. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    What do you think the word "allegedly" means?
    Right.... people claimed jesus said this.

    Your very own wording reveals that these are merely claims that got collected in a book. They remain claims, regardless of if and when and by whom they were written down.

    Right. So there "evidence" is hearsay and claimed "testimony". And testimony, as well as hearsay, is what? Right: more claims.

    So really, instead of defending your point, you're giving even more weight to mine. It's just a piling on of claims.

    So for christians to hold their beliefs about jesus they must believe the claims written in the bible which, according to your very statements above, means the following:
    - they must believe the claims were accurately recorded in these texts by the authors
    - they must believe the people accurately repeated the claims from whom they authors heared them
    - they must believe those people accurately repeated the claims who heared them from those that came before them
    - etc until you get to those people who allegedly were the "first source"
    - they must believe that those people even existed and that it wasn't made up / formed along the way somewhere
    - they must believe they told the truth and didn't "embellish" it or made it up out of thin air
    - they must believe that assuming they were honest, that they correctly interpreted the fantastical claims they made. You know after all, the scizofrenic who hears voices also really honestly believes in the paranoid conspiracies he hears from those voices.


    It's claim after claim after claim after claim after claim after......
    And off course it all relies on copies of copies of translations of copies of copies of translations of copies of.......... etc


    It sounds a little unwise to me, to say the least, to put so much faith in such a weak case.
     
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  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    lol, owkay.

    I guess the same goes for centaurs, bigfoot, visiting aliens, leprechauns, fairies, ...

    After all, if there are stories about it, it must be true, right?
     
  17. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I believe aliens are more likely government fakes, and I don’t think that “if there are stories about it, it must be true”. But in some cases, I think it is more probable that the story is true than that it is a fake, especially if there is no reasonable motive for fake.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I would rather say that people wrote that Jesus said x, y, and z and then that got compiled into a book.
    Those people wrote that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and many other things, and they wrote that Jesus rose from the dead and walked on water, healed the sick, raised people from the dead, etc.
    There are some claims that Jesus made in the NT but it is not all claims. Much of the NT is stories men wrote about what Jesus allegedly said and did.
    Yes, this is what Christians must believe. They must believe what is written in the NT. You can call them claims if you want to, I call them writings of men.
    I fully agree. Christians have to believe what they believe on faith, faith that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit. I kind of believe that but only because I belong to another religion that corroborates that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures. But what does that mean? Obviously it was not written by God, and since it was written by fallible men that leaves a lot of room for errors to creep in. Certainly, given the NT was passed down by oral tradition many years after Jesus lived it cannot be word for word what Jesus said, because that is logically impossible. I do however believe that the essence of what Jesus taught is captured in the NT although I do not believe that the stories written about Jesus are literally true. Rather, they are stories, some of which convey spiritual truths.
     
  19. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    No one has to believe anything, a Christian is someone who makes a decision to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. God reveals Himself to us and we live out the Word of God. We find out that God is faithful to His Word and promises.

    This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written
    ‭‭John‬ ‭21:24-25‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    I’ve proved to myself beyond a shadow of a doubt these words to be true and reliable.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Fair enough.
    Just as I have proven to myself beyond a shadow of a doubt the writings of Baha'u'llah are true and reliable.
     
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