There's no such thing as the "war on women"

[Titanic]

Okay I get it. Thank you for showing me that Mystic. I guess I got a little carried away.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Okay I get it. Thank you for showing me that Mystic. I guess I got a little carried away.

No problem.

 

[dust1n]

I don't think he has a dumb opinion and if you read this entire thread, you'll find that he really has been misquoted.

If he has been misquoted, it's only because the language he uses is ambiguous and changes, and when someone asks for clarification, such requests have been routinely ignored. I personally have posted multiple times that it is possible that I am entirely misunderstanding the specifics of his points, but anytime I try to address that, I was ignored, multiple times.

You personally, discounted statistical data that he provided to support his opinion, accusing his sources of being biased. Stats are stats, are they not? We aren't forced to interpret them in the same way or accept them. A small percentage of abortions performed in the United Stated are abortions performed after the 20+ week. This is fact.

No one contested there were 16,000 late term abortions (or at least that the figure is entirely plausible), but when he originally applied that datum, he did so with the pretext that all 16,000 were done illegally (or unethically, or whatever) instead of acknowledging that that statistic doesn't provide in more information about the nature of those abortions, such as medical necessity.

We're debating over a very small percentage of women.

I have to add, that what amazes me about self-proclaimed feminists is that they tend to want rights for women, but, often undermine the ability of a woman to exercise intelligent and responsible choices.

I'd like to see one specific example of that in this thread.

 

[dust1n]

I would rather have had at least one woman on the panel cause it would be nice to see a woman say no to abortion.

I'm glad one woman is acceptable on the board, after she has explicitly stated to vote in the favor of your stance, instead of actually have legitimate and equal representation (regardless their stance) on the board that makes such decisions.

 

[dust1n]

Alceste I am talking about when a woman choose's to have an abortion when she is like 4 or 5 month's along. I remember when that doctor was killing live babie's after he got them from the mother's womb. A screwed up too late abortion. Very evil.

And you're comparing too different things. There has never been a baby born at or before 21 weeks and lived. So equating a 5 month abortion to what Dr. Gosnell did is so wrong, that I don't know where to begin saying how wrong that is. It is impossible to deliver anything before the 21 week and then "kill it" because it had a 0% chance of living up to that point anyway.

 

[dawny0826]

If he has been misquoted, it's only because the language he uses is ambiguous and changes, and when someone asks for clarification, such requests have been routinely ignored.

In regards to his ambiguous and changing language, I didn't read that in his posts.

I have been quite clear as to what I support from his posts and what my personal thoughts are on this topic.

No one contested there were 16,000 late term abortions (or at least that the figure is entirely plausible), but when he originally applied that datum, he did so with the pretext that all 16,000 were done illegally (or unethically, or whatever) instead of acknowledging that that statistic doesn't provide in more information about the nature of those abortions, such as medical necessity.

Funny, I didn't read that from his posts. And I am open to being corrected, if I've missed something.

I did read where he admitted that he couldn't find the stats that were being requested and he invited anyone who could to share. I haven't found statistics on how many abortions are handled out of medical necessity. But, what I am consistently able to find are statistics and data that support more generalities regarding 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions.

This is what I was able to find:

9 out of 10 abortions are performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy - the majority of women, regardless as to their reason for aborting, are already doing so within the first trimester.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

From the CDC:

According to the most recent national estimates, nearly one fifth of all pregnancies in the United States end in abortion (5). Multiple social, cultural, economic, and political factors are known to influence the incidence of abortion: the availability of abortion providers (12,77--79); the adoption of state regulations, such as mandatory waiting periods and parental involvement laws (55,80); increasing acceptance of nonmarital childbearing (81,82); shifts in the racial/ethnic composition of the U.S. population (83,84); and changes in the economy and the resulting impact on fertility preferences and access to health-care services, including contraception (85,86). However, in spite of these multiple influences, efforts to reduce the incidence of abortion need to focus on preventing unintended pregnancy. Indeed, nearly all abortions are preceded by an unintended pregnancy, with most recent estimates suggesting that intended pregnancies account for <5% of all abortions (22), including those which presumably are performed for maternal medical indications and fetal abnormalities.

Source:

Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2008

Good luck finding, specifically, what you're looking for.

My comment regarding feminism was a simple statement of opinion. I didn't claim that it was on topic or directly relative to anything that anyone in particular posted.

It was a statement intended to drive the point that I was making about PREVENTION of unwanted pregnancy and how feminists often amaze me by their hypocrisy. Take from that what you want.

 

[rageoftyrael]

Silly women, wanting to have says on what they do with their own bodies.

 

[Sunstone]

Silly women, wanting to have says on what they do with their own bodies.

I myself think it's kind of cute. As if they possessed the means to be reasonable!

 

[idav]

I myself think it's kind of cute. As if they possessed the means to be reasonable!

Good thing we have the law(and the men controlling it) to be their guiding light.

 

[dust1n]

In regards to his ambiguous and changing language, I didn't read that in his posts.

I have been quite clear as to what I support from his posts and what my personal thoughts are on this topic.

You have been so ambiguous to this point by trying to reply to my concerns whilst addressing Alceste. I provided examples where he clearly stated he did not support elective abortions past twelve weeks of conception, directly to your posts, which were completely missed or ignored, and I've yet to see the retraction.

Funny, I didn't read that from his posts. And I am open to being corrected, if I've missed something.

Funny that someone who came in after 400 posts and ft's disappearance can't read that from his posts, but the three people who engaged him into debate, patiently, after almost ten or so ignored posts and points on his part, and after probably 50-100 individual posts engaged in the discussion, all are pretty much of the general understanding that he was, in fact, ambiguous and often changed his wording.

I'm glad you are open to being corrected, but I can't simply repost twenty pages worth of stuff to persuade from what you might have missed. Even then, I already did supply direct quotes to you, post #490, which were promptly missed.

I did read where he admitted that he couldn't find the stats that were being requested and he invited anyone who could to share. I haven't found statistics on how many abortions are handled out of medical necessity. But, what I am consistently able to find are statistics and data that support more generalities regarding 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions.

I saw where he made that retraction, too, which was a result of Alceste pointing it directly out to him, via the same criticism she still maintains. There is no way of knowing the cause of those pregnancies -- one can not assume the nature of them.

I find it incredible you missed where he tried to use the statistics to say suggest all of them were bad, but you caught the retraction of it.

This is what I was able to find:

9 out of 10 abortions are performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy - the majority of women, regardless as to their reason for aborting, are already doing so within the first trimester.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

From the CDC:


Source:

Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2008

So I should use more statistics incorrectly to determine how many late-term abortions are elective?

Good luck finding, specifically, what you're looking for.

A bet a good portion of them are elective... consider:

United States

See also: Reasons for abortions


In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[2]


71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

Late termination of pregnancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


By the way, I don't even think either us really disagree that much on abortion at all. FT did, though.

My comment regarding feminism was a simple statement of opinion. I didn't claim that it was on topic or directly relative to anything that anyone in particular posted. It was a statement intended to drive the point that I was making about PREVENTION of unwanted pregnancy and how feminists often amaze me by their hypocrisy. Take from that what you want.

Oh I see, so when you said "I have to add, that what amazes me about self-proclaimed feminists is that they tend to want rights for women, but, often undermine the ability of a woman to exercise intelligent and responsible choices," you weren't alluding to any of the self-proclaimed feminists in this thread.

 

[dust1n]

Also, the reasons for those late-term abortions, most could have been addressed with the information that us self-proclaimed feminists have been providing for years, while the "conservative" route would like to remain much like the historical method, by vilifying the women, calling for her murder, etc., you get the point.

 

[Alceste]

Also, the reasons for those late-term abortions, most could have been addressed with the information that us self-proclaimed feminists have been providing for years, while the "conservative" route would like to remain much like the historical method, by vilifying the women, calling for her murder, etc., you get the point.

Don't forget the debacle that is "abstinence education", where pubescent, confused, hormone filled teens are taught by ostensibly authoritative adults that birth control is both dangerous and ineffective at preventing pregnancy and disease.

Is it any wonder why the US has an unusually high rate of teen pregnancy, unplanned pregnancy, abortion, and late term abortion compared to the rest of the western world?

 

[rageoftyrael]

You wanna hear a delightfully reprehensible idea i just had? We could avoid issues like abortion if we just gave all boys vasectomy's before they had sex. Then, later, if they wanted to father a child, they could go get it reversed. Yes, brilliant, i know. Feel free to shower me with praise.

 

[Alceste]

You wanna hear a delightfully reprehensible idea i just had? We could avoid issues like abortion if we just gave all boys vasectomy's before they had sex. Then, later, if they wanted to father a child, they could go get it reversed. Yes, brilliant, i know. Feel free to shower me with praise.

Good idea! It could be done at the same time as circumcision. I think we should get an all female panel of legislators to get together and discuss the issue. We'll tell you lads what the law is going to be when we've finished deliberating, but you might want to take this opportunity to come to terms with infertility and say goodbye to your foreskin, if necessary.

C'mon, Heather. Let's get cracking! I think there might be a way to stamp out unplanned pregnancy once and for all!

 

[dust1n]

Don't forget the debacle that is "abstinence education", where pubescent, confused, hormone filled teens are taught by ostensibly authoritative adults that birth control is both dangerous and ineffective at preventing pregnancy and disease.

Is it any wonder why the US has an unusually high rate of teen pregnancy, unplanned pregnancy, abortion, and late term abortion compared to the rest of the western world?

Not really.

 

[Sunstone]

You wanna hear a delightfully reprehensible idea i just had? We could avoid issues like abortion if we just gave all boys vasectomy's before they had sex. Then, later, if they wanted to father a child, they could go get it reversed. Yes, brilliant, i know. Feel free to shower me with praise.

Can I take a rain check on that shower?

Just kidding. It's actually a better idea than, say, the Texas State School Board is likely to come up with.

 

[rageoftyrael]

Sounds fair, Alceste. If an all male group are allowed to make decisions on what women can do with their bodies, an all female group can decide what men do with theirs!

 

[Adramelek]

Now come on people, don't you see what your doing here? Women legislating male resproductive organs vs. men legislating womens reproductive organs. If any perverted government beaurocrat comes near a child of mine with vasectomy or castration in mind, they will have my 357 mag to deal with. Oh, yeah!

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Gnothi seauton!

 

[Apex]

Made you look....


20-Week Abortion Bill Advanced By All-Male Congressional Panel


Tell me do you think about this initiative by this all male group of republican men?

They should have gone for 12 weeks.

 

[Alceste]

They should have gone for 12 weeks.