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There is Yeshua here.

wizanda

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Any Jews out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH to fully see if Yeshua's own words, and prophecies fit within it?
Just reading what it says, and taking it at face value, then seeing if Yeshua fits within Messianic prophecy?
Without having a bias Rabbinic lens over looking it?

I'd be interested to know how you fared, and where you had no choice but to read Yeshua there, for lack of a better explanation of the passage?:)
 
SpeaksForTheTrees

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
wizanda said:
Any Jews out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH to fully see if Yeshua's own words, and prophecies fit within it?
Just reading what it says, and taking it at face value, then seeing if Yeshua fits within Messianic prophecy?
Without having a bias Rabbinic lens over looking it?

I'd be interested to know how you fared, and where you had no choice but to read Yeshua there, for lack of a better explanation of the passage?:)
Click to expand...

Are you saying ,there are no non-Christian religions because Yeshua is the revelation behind everything ?.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
wizanda said:
Any Jews out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH to fully see if Yeshua's own words, and prophecies fit within it?
Just reading what it says, and taking it at face value, then seeing if Yeshua fits within Messianic prophecy?
Without having a bias Rabbinic lens over looking it?

I'd be interested to know how you fared, and where you had no choice but to read Yeshua there, for lack of a better explanation of the passage?:)
Click to expand...
Pick any passage. But remember, you can't know any storied about the NT when you read it just like the Jews didn't when they were reading it.
 
Flankerl

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Ovadiah 1:1
The vision of Obadiah; So said the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard tidings from the Lord, and a messenger has been sent among the nations, "Arise and let us rise up against them in war!"

The messenger is clearly Jesus. Also "them" are the Scribes.

Am I doing it right?
 
wizanda

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Tumah said:
Yeah, go for it. Show me how someone who has no prior knowledge of Jesus would be expected to see Jesus in that passage.
Click to expand...
I know how it can fit, have you questioned if it could fit with what happened with Yeshua, as acknowledged by the new testament writers, etc?
Flankerl said:
Am I doing it right?
Click to expand...
Didn't know they were Messianic prophecies....Try starting with the the whole chapters which could be considered Messianic prophecies, and see if those fit with Yeshua. :)
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
wizanda said:
I know how it can fit, have you questioned if it could fit with what happened with Yeshua, as acknowledged by the new testament writers, etc?
Click to expand...
There is no question that the NT writers used the chapter for inspiration in their stories. The point is, if it can be understood without the NT, then there's no pressure to read it like the NT tries to interpret it. And if we don't need to do that, then there's no reason to take the NT as anything more than reverse engineering Jesus into the Tanach.
 
wizanda

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Tumah said:
The point is, if it can be understood without the NT, then there's no pressure to read it like the NT tries to interpret it.
Click to expand...
It can be understood within any setting, applying it to anyone is possible....

Rather then applying either a Rabbinic or Christian lens to interpret it by, is it possible to see it is speaking about the Messiah?
Tumah said:
to take the NT as anything more than reverse engineering Jesus into the Tanach.
Click to expand...
Not saying the new testament writers don't do that in lots of places; yet what if the parts that matter, are the actions, and teachings of Yeshua, not what surrounds it.

So then on examining the Tanakh, can alignment be seen with what is prophesied?
 
SpeaksForTheTrees

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
wizanda said:
It can be understood within any setting, applying it to anyone is possible....

Rather then applying either a Rabbinic or Christian lens to interpret it by, is it possible to see it is speaking about the Messiah?

Not saying the new testament writers don't do that in lots of places; yet what if the parts that matter, are the actions, and teachings of Yeshua, not what surrounds it.

So then on examining the Tanakh, can alignment be seen with what is prophesied?
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused , lol , I knew it did not concern myself .
There seems to be a difference between messiah and
mashiach fundermental ?
Jesus was not a military leader ?
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
How about...

Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?
Proverbs 30:4
 
SpeaksForTheTrees

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
wizanda said:
You can't rule peacefully over anyone, if they don't want you to. ;)
Click to expand...

He can and he does ?
Judaism does not generaly use capital punishment ? .
The laws are only half implemented due to world pressures
Jesus (Yeshua) lives , say it again " lives " in you and i and in theory 1.5 billion Christians .
Bar Kokhba is dead , I have never heard this name before .
Hebrews 7:24

And as for Great military leaders they do not get much better than the Christians , I mean we even sacked Jerusalem in his name , then rebuilt it .
And now today is called Israel.

Despite what Christians believe Jesus said he was not God ?.
 
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Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
wizanda said:
You can't rule peacefully over anyone, if they don't want you to. ;)

Well Isaiah 53, would be a start... :innocent:
Click to expand...

There is no Jesus in those verses.

Read it in context - with the surrounding texts, - and in the Hebrew.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.


Isa 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isa 2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Isa 54:3 is a good example of the fudged translation. It has been translated to look like the Gentile will inherit. It actually says the opposite.

Isa 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

It is actually saying something like -

Isa 54:3 For thy right hand and thy left shall break forth ,and thy seed/children shall occupy/seize/inherit the foreign nations/gentiles, and their cities stun/waste, and occupy/inhabit.

Isaiah is still talking about the house of Jacob in 58:1.

Isa 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

In 60 it is still talking about their wars.

Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the YHVH thy God, and Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

It even tells us who the "Redeemer" and "Savior" is -

Isa 60:16 You shall also suck (take) the milk of foreign nations/gentiles, and you shall suck (take) from the breasts of kings. And you shall know that I, YHVH, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

No Jesus here.

*
 
Quagmire

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Ingledsva said:
There is no Jesus in those verses.

Read it in context - with the surrounding texts, - and in the Hebrew.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

No Jesus here.

*
Click to expand...

Well of course there is. Look:

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

You just got to really, really, really want to see it.

And ignore everything around it.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
wizanda said:
Any Jews out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH to fully see if Yeshua's own words, and prophecies fit within it?
Just reading what it says, and taking it at face value, then seeing if Yeshua fits within Messianic prophecy?
Without having a bias Rabbinic lens over looking it?

I'd be interested to know how you fared, and where you had no choice but to read Yeshua there, for lack of a better explanation of the passage?:)
Click to expand...
The problem with this question is the timeline. If the words of Jesus were written down tears afterwards, then any time I read them and see if Jesus' claims fall into place, I see that as a result of reverse engineering the effect to claim connection to the cause.

I have looked at a bunch of what some thing is messianic prophecy and therefore see the claims about Jesus can fit. Like the one about "messiah will be born of a woman." Apparently, if I tilt my head just right, I can see how this would apply to Jesus. The claim that the messiah would be from the line of Abe, Isaac and Jacob? OK, so if the gospels establish Jesus as Jewish, then that's done. The messiah would spend time in Egypt. Well, ok then. This is really narrowing down the field. There is also the one about where he was born, and the fact that he rode a donkey. Yeah, these could apply to Jesus. And a whole lot of other people.

But, of course, they aren't actually messianic prophecies in the first place.

So I looked at some others:
The ingathering of the exiles? I looked at face value Nope, not Jesus. The exiles are still not ingathered and he's dead.
The rebuilding of the temple? Well, there is no temple, so, um, no.
Universal knowledge and acceptance of God. Well, hasn't happened. So strike 3.
An end to war is prophesied. Sadly, that's not a thing.

So at face value, Jesus fit those things that lots of people fit, and at face value he doesn't fit those things that are actually representative of messianic prophecies.
 
Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
InChrist said:
How about...

Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?
Proverbs 30:4
Click to expand...

This is a proverb for humans and has nothing to do with Jesus.

Whosoever has ascended into the sky and descended? The answer = NO-ONE.

It is saying NO human can do these things -

And they can prove it - by asking them, - If you actually know - then name someone that you know whom has done it? and the name of his son? They CAN'T.

*
 
Jedster

Jedster

Well-Known Member
Quagmire said:
Well of course there is. Look:

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

You just got to really, really, really want to see it.

And ignore everything around it.
Click to expand...
Sometime you just gorra laugh
 
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