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There Can be no "Intelligent Design"

Kirby D. P.

Member
The classic example arguing for intelligent design in the universe is William Paley’s “watchmaker” analogy. If, while roaming along a beach full of sand, rocks and random, chaotic waves, any reasonable person finds and picks up a pocket watch, he or she would understand that it was very different from the rest of the natural surroundings, that it was artificial, that it had purpose and that it was DESIGNED by an intelligence.

This analogy is used to argue for Intelligent Design in the establishing of the universe, in ranges all the way from a very subtle form (arranging the laws of nature by an intelligent creator) to a very literal and explicit form (that everything, including humans, were deliberately and specifically designed in moments of special creation).

I’m sure I can find writings from experts on both sides of the fence that answer the following questions. But I’m interested in opinions among us generally:

Paley contrasts the obvious design of the watch with the obvious non-design of the natural shoreline to argue positively that the universe at large is designed. But, if we take the situation literally (and I do understand, no analogy is meant to be), then the watch was designed by a being (a human) who itself was designed by a designer – the SAME designer that designed the sand, rocks and seawater. Hence, these other features are ALSO intelligently designed.

So, in real life, in cosmic terms, it seems impossible to distinguish between the design of a watch and the natural environment. If a creator made all in a moment (or six days) of special creation, then no aspect, no particle, no force, nor feature of that cosmos is NOT intelligently designed.

On what basis, then, can one claim that the universe IS intelligently designed since no one has ever experienced any phenomenon that is not intelligently designed? Doesn’t the universe appear to us in a way that can just as easily called “UN-intelligently” designed as “intelligently designed”?

Isn’t the question of intelligent design of a universe that contains everything meaningless and illogical?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I believe non-physical conscious beings are involved in directing the affairs of the universe. I don't think something like DNA came about only through the forces currently accepted by science but involved beings (nature spirits) with conscious intent. However, from a strictly physical perspective, there is of course no way to prove either side and no arguments that suffice. My opinion (not proof) comes from my study of evidence for things above the physical from paranormal considerations and the teachings of individuals with experiences I have come to respect.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The classic example arguing for intelligent design in the universe is William Paley’s “watchmaker” analogy. If, while roaming along a beach full of sand, rocks and random, chaotic waves, any reasonable person finds and picks up a pocket watch, he or she would understand that it was very different from the rest of the natural surroundings, that it was artificial, that it had purpose and that it was DESIGNED by an intelligence.

This analogy is used to argue for Intelligent Design in the establishing of the universe, in ranges all the way from a very subtle form (arranging the laws of nature by an intelligent creator) to a very literal and explicit form (that everything, including humans, were deliberately and specifically designed in moments of special creation).

I’m sure I can find writings from experts on both sides of the fence that answer the following questions. But I’m interested in opinions among us generally:

Paley contrasts the obvious design of the watch with the obvious non-design of the natural shoreline to argue positively that the universe at large is designed. But, if we take the situation literally (and I do understand, no analogy is meant to be), then the watch was designed by a being (a human) who itself was designed by a designer – the SAME designer that designed the sand, rocks and seawater. Hence, these other features are ALSO intelligently designed.

So, in real life, in cosmic terms, it seems impossible to distinguish between the design of a watch and the natural environment. If a creator made all in a moment (or six days) of special creation, then no aspect, no particle, no force, nor feature of that cosmos is NOT intelligently designed.

On what basis, then, can one claim that the universe IS intelligently designed since no one has ever experienced any phenomenon that is not intelligently designed? Doesn’t the universe appear to us in a way that can just as easily called “UN-intelligently” designed as “intelligently designed”?

Isn’t the question of intelligent design of a universe that contains everything meaningless and illogical?

Well, if that shoreline is clearly not designed, that would entail that the Universe is not designed either. The shoreline being a part thereof.

Ciao

- viole
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
Only humans are contradictory to theory of intelligent design , is intelligent as in humans not leaving here any time soon and in control of our own destiny .
Take all the wires in the world you will never create a working fully functioning conscious brain
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
An alternative story perhaps would clarify even more how bizarre Paley's analogy is.

Maybe it could start something like this "Imagine if you find a bunch of sand inside a watch..."
 

Kirby D. P.

Member
...Take all the wires in the world you will never create a working fully functioning conscious brain
Hey, Speaks for the Trees (love the cuneiform profile pic, BTW), I don't get what you're trying to say, but am intrigued enough by the tone of it to ask for clarification, please. As for creating a fully functioning brain, I've done it twice. I would never propose using wires (though some wine and a little atmospheric ambiance never hurts). Of course, my wife tries to take all the credit. But I pitched in.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
The classic example arguing for intelligent design in the universe is William Paley’s “watchmaker” analogy. If, while roaming along a beach full of sand, rocks and random, chaotic waves, any reasonable person finds and picks up a pocket watch, he or she would understand that it was very different from the rest of the natural surroundings, that it was artificial, that it had purpose and that it was DESIGNED by an intelligence.

This analogy is used to argue for Intelligent Design in the establishing of the universe, in ranges all the way from a very subtle form (arranging the laws of nature by an intelligent creator) to a very literal and explicit form (that everything, including humans, were deliberately and specifically designed in moments of special creation).

I’m sure I can find writings from experts on both sides of the fence that answer the following questions. But I’m interested in opinions among us generally:

Paley contrasts the obvious design of the watch with the obvious non-design of the natural shoreline to argue positively that the universe at large is designed. But, if we take the situation literally (and I do understand, no analogy is meant to be), then the watch was designed by a being (a human) who itself was designed by a designer – the SAME designer that designed the sand, rocks and seawater. Hence, these other features are ALSO intelligently designed.

So, in real life, in cosmic terms, it seems impossible to distinguish between the design of a watch and the natural environment. If a creator made all in a moment (or six days) of special creation, then no aspect, no particle, no force, nor feature of that cosmos is NOT intelligently designed.

On what basis, then, can one claim that the universe IS intelligently designed since no one has ever experienced any phenomenon that is not intelligently designed? Doesn’t the universe appear to us in a way that can just as easily called “UN-intelligently” designed as “intelligently designed”?

Isn’t the question of intelligent design of a universe that contains everything meaningless and illogical?

How do we decide the universe is intelligently designed? By contrasting it to what???
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
Hey, Speaks for the Trees (love the cuneiform profile pic, BTW), I don't get what you're trying to say, but am intrigued enough by the tone of it to ask for clarification, please. As for creating a fully functioning brain, I've done it twice. I would never propose using wires (though some wine and a little atmospheric ambiance never hurts). Of course, my wife tries to take all the credit. But I pitched in.

Hey
Two sips of wine gives me headache within few mins , hate the taste of beer
Never drink to get drunk is aweful experience like being sea sick .
I like sucking on a piece of tellurium for kicks ,fckn mind blowing .
 

Kirby D. P.

Member
Hey
Two sips of wine gives me headache within few mins , hate the taste of beer
Never drink to get drunk is aweful experience like being sea sick .
I like sucking on a piece of tellurium for kicks ,fckn mind blowing .
First, I fear you have never had a properly assembled and executed Martini. Second... um... tellerium, huh? On second thought, I guess all just take your suggestino of wires and leave it at that.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
The classic example arguing for intelligent design in the universe is William Paley’s “watchmaker” analogy. If, while roaming along a beach full of sand, rocks and random, chaotic waves, any reasonable person finds and picks up a pocket watch, he or she would understand that it was very different from the rest of the natural surroundings, that it was artificial, that it had purpose and that it was DESIGNED by an intelligence.

This analogy is used to argue for Intelligent Design in the establishing of the universe, in ranges all the way from a very subtle form (arranging the laws of nature by an intelligent creator) to a very literal and explicit form (that everything, including humans, were deliberately and specifically designed in moments of special creation).

I’m sure I can find writings from experts on both sides of the fence that answer the following questions. But I’m interested in opinions among us generally:

Paley contrasts the obvious design of the watch with the obvious non-design of the natural shoreline to argue positively that the universe at large is designed. But, if we take the situation literally (and I do understand, no analogy is meant to be), then the watch was designed by a being (a human) who itself was designed by a designer – the SAME designer that designed the sand, rocks and seawater. Hence, these other features are ALSO intelligently designed.

So, in real life, in cosmic terms, it seems impossible to distinguish between the design of a watch and the natural environment. If a creator made all in a moment (or six days) of special creation, then no aspect, no particle, no force, nor feature of that cosmos is NOT intelligently designed.

On what basis, then, can one claim that the universe IS intelligently designed since no one has ever experienced any phenomenon that is not intelligently designed? Doesn’t the universe appear to us in a way that can just as easily called “UN-intelligently” designed as “intelligently designed”?

Isn’t the question of intelligent design of a universe that contains everything meaningless and illogical?

Can you find a watch on the beach? Did the universe create it by shaking billions of years through determinism/causality or was it created by an intelligent being. Show me how to create a watch without intelligence and then you have something. The watch, the car, the computer, etc where all created by intelligence.

Saying that evolution created intelligence is a far cry from actually proving it. They still haven't figured out how life was created.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Can you find a watch on the beach? Did the universe create it by shaking billions of years through determinism/causality or was it created by an intelligent being. Show me how to create a watch without intelligence and then you have something. The watch, the car, the computer, etc where all created by intelligence.

How did you decide that the watch was designed? You contrasted it against it's surroundings that were NATURAL.
The fact that you saw it as unique from it's surroundings disproves your assertion. Yep, the watch, the car, and the computer were all created by intelligent HUMANS.

To use your own example, how would we decide this universe was intelligently designed??? Well, we would have to compare it to another universe which was not intelligently designed. This is not possible, as we have only one example.



Saying that evolution created intelligence is a far cry from actually proving it. They still haven't figured out how life was created.

And saying a god created everything is an even farther cry from proving it. Evolution has nothong to with the origin of life. That would be abiogenisis.

Outline what level of evidence you would need before you could believe in abiogenisis and evolution and then provide the equivalent level evidence to support your god. Looking forward to reading it.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Outline what level of evidence you would need before you could believe in abiogenisis and evolution and then provide the equivalent level evidence to support your god. Looking forward to reading it.
I predict this will not happen.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Can you find a watch on the beach? Did the universe create it by shaking billions of years through determinism/causality or was it created by an intelligent being. Show me how to create a watch without intelligence and then you have something. The watch, the car, the computer, etc where all created by intelligence.

Saying that evolution created intelligence is a far cry from actually proving it. They still haven't figured out how life was created.
Way to completely miss the point of the OP....
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
And saying a god created everything is an even farther cry from proving it. Evolution has nothong to with the origin of life. That would be abiogenisis.

Outline what level of evidence you would need before you could believe in abiogenisis and evolution and then provide the equivalent level evidence to support your god. Looking forward to reading it.

I don't need to. Use whatever thing is in existence today explode it, electrocute it, or mix it with chemicals bring it to life any thing you want to do. I'll wait and accept your belief then.
Take what ever you consider the first life, nurture it , mate it, give it drugs create an intelligence the can create a watch and I'll take back all I said. I'll wait and accept your belief then.
You don't even have to duplicate just show me the actual path intelligence took so that man can make a watch, take the closest creature to us and show me scientifically reproducible steps to get the intelligence to create a watch. I'll wait and accept your belief then.

If its is not scientifically credible which means ability to duplicate among other things, it might as well be God.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
On what basis, then, can one claim that the universe IS intelligently designed since no one has ever experienced any phenomenon that is not intelligently designed?

1. Have baby.
2. Wait until baby is 1 year old.
3. Place baby into hi-chair.
4. Give baby spaghetti in tomato sauce
5. ???
6. Observe unintelligent design all over your kitchen.
 
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