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Featured There are two stronger arguments the PoE.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jul 28, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    One, the argument from divine hiddenness.
    Second, is why God does not talk to us.

    Both of these, are stronger arguments than PoE in my view and there explanations are harder to justify. Yet to me, there is an explanation to both, and actually, to explain PoE, you have to explain these two anyways.
     
  2. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    You don't explain what these arguments are.

    At first place both seem to allow for a God not existing, at least not in the way humans tend to imagine them.
     
  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    They are two arguments against God's existence. One is saying God would display himself in more clear way (like through miracles) if he wished to be known and would wish to be known if he was a God. The other is God would talk to us if existed and I don't mean through divine scripture but to all humans.
     
  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The reason why God doesn't talk to us and why he is not in clear display, also, has to be factored in explaining the problem of evil. Because the problem of evil asserts this is not the ideal world and a better world can be created. An example of that is God displaying himself through miracles and speaking to us all.

    So a Theist has to explain those two arguments in response to PoE. But individually, they are strongest version of PoE in my view. PoE can be too general and have all sorts of explanations, but this narrows, it down, to well you assume this a perfect world, I just showed a better world that goes with how God should be worshipped.

    And since I too believe ideally God wanted this originally, I would be on the defensive.
     
  5. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    If an omnipotent entity that could prevent suffering chooses not to because it wants to stay hidden, I would describe that entity as evil, Certainly not omnibenevolent.
     
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  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    This is how it appears, either he is evil or doesn't exist, unless there is an explanation. And the explanation is not simple but takes understanding on faith and the veils of light by which God speaks through. It's not simple at all as an explanation.
     
  7. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I believe from experience that God does talk (communicate) with us in various ways including through intuition and inspiration and very rarely through dreams.

    The song I've oft quoted says that. It does not use the word, God, but to me that's implied. The 'change' and 'light' the song speaks of is God's communication. (the word 'light' reminds me of Quran 24:35, the "Verse of Light"):

    Change can come in the twinkling of an eye,
    In the ripple upon a lake.
    Change can come in the color of a flower,
    In the sparkle of morning dew,
    When the Light catches you.
    In that tiny moment, you are transformed.
     
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  8. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    Eh... The PoE suffices for me.

    If god exists, 8 don't know how he/she could be all good and all perfect and all powerful wrapped in one. Everything we can see and experience in life just doesn't reflect that nature... The concept is alien.
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Well if it's a she, we know they complicated :p

    I'm joking...
     
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  10. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    I'm not saying anything; I value my life. :D
     
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  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Brilliant.
    Now why didn't I think of that?
    In fact, EXPLANATION runs the gamut from informed inference to pretentious drivel.
     
  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    To many yes an explanation seems like that. Since it takes faith in the nature of the veils of light and a nature of a world beyond five senses, I think Atheists often are not to be solely blamed for their ignorance in this time and age, when miracles are not in the open and when believers don't even offer explanations as to why to them.

    That and historical explanations takes understanding of the nature of evil and free-will and God not forcing people to come to Messengers and when miracles can be and often are opposed resulting in punishment in destroyed cities, which all seems yes complicated.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    (ignored)
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Your loss dude.
     
  15. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but anything that requires you to take an understanding on 'faith' is worthless for determining the truth, since people can have faith in absolutely anything, regardless of how false it might be.
     
  16. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    And I understand this sentiment is true for a lot of people and hence I forbear atheism in this time and age, because it's a dark night where the truth is not as bright as it can be with miracles in the open and a leader and guide in the open. Rather, when the guide is hidden, the truth becomes harder to see.

    In these dark times, we are to forbear each other differences. Believers are in a weak state of defending their faith when miracles are not in the open.

    So I understand it seems worthless to you.
     
  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Faith in God, hereafter, Messengers, Guides, when miracles are in the open, and can be ascertained and people can check so and so Guide and ask him for miracles, is like breathing air it's natural.

    When miracles not in the open, it's like holding on to molten. It's hard and not easy.
     
  18. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Actually it's worthless for everyone. Since two people can have 100% faith in completely opposing concepts it's obvious that faith is NOT a path to truth. Faith is what people turn to when they don't have any verifiable evidence to back up their claims. If you have actual verifiable evidence for your claims then you don't need faith.
     
  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's not worthless from POV of most people on earth. Faith to me is belief in signs of God and what they prove, point to and lead to.

    Although I agree with you that blind faith and zeal in blindness doesn't guide aright.

    As for your last line, the only day when truth can't be denied is day of judgment. Even in the life of death, many souls will be confused. It's only day of judgment when truth is manifested so no one can deny it.
     
  20. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    I agree that most people consider faith to have worth because it allows them to believe what they want to believe without any verifiable evidence. However faith is absolutely worthless when it comes to determining the truth. And that matters for people like me who value actual truth above the contented feeling I might get from simply pretending that because of my faith that I somehow know the truth.

    And if there is some sort of a judgement day, it'll be little wonder that so many are confused, because they were foolishly taught that simply having faith was somehow a reliable path to the truth. I on the other hand might be surprised come judgement day, but I won't be confused, because I withhold belief in claims until after I've been presented with verifiable evidence that the claims are true.
     
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